Manufactuer's Corner ---A Modest Proposal

Other The Local Pub
1

I have an idea that might end some of the problems around here.

In many magazines, the editors provide a seperate space for manufactuers to make annoucements and even respond to the content of the magazine. Why not provide a similar seperate forum here?

The idea is simple–if you are a manufactuer selling products, all posts relating to what you are selling would be in the “Manufactuer’s Corner” section. A manufactuer, however, would still be free to post in other areas on topics not related to the products they sell.

An example of how it would work–Doug Lord would be free to post in the Pub Section on “Did the Kiwi’s Really Lose the Cup”, but all of his posts about CBTF (since he is a manufactuer tying to sell CBTF boats) would be in the Manufactuer’s Corner" section. Dick Lemke would be free to post anywhere about multi-hulls and F-48 hulls since he is an acting class secretary and not in business for commercial gain. (Same thing with Will and the Fairwind. He’s not a manufactuer selling boats. Same thing with JohnB or Gappy with moving ballas boats, they are individuals talking about one off projects). If Climate Boatworks wanted to talk about how well their boats perform and the technology they use in building them it would be in the “Manufactuer’s Corner” section, if they wanted to talk about Cougar’s proposed IACC class they could post anywhere, they aren’t selling those kind of products. If Doug had an opinion about servos it could go anywhere–he isn’t manufacturing sevos, if Grunta wanted to talk about the “Ultimate Warrior” it would go in the “Manufactuer’s Corner”, if he wanted to talk about the Racing Rules of Sailing it would go in “General Discussion”.

The one big thing that would change would be that in a discussion of the r/c Laser (for example) an r/c sailmaker selling sails couldn’t post and say that his sail plan would make the boat faster nor would Doug Lord be allowed to post saying the boat would be much better with a canting keel system or a “wing tip rig” or hydrofoils (products he is trying to sell). And even with such restrictions such ideas wouldn’t be prohibited, they would just go up in the Manufactuer’s Corner section.

The thing about this idea is that it is easy to implement and it doesn’t restrict anyone from expressing their ideas. At the same time, though, it responds to all the people who say “If you don’t like what X posts, don’t read them” by moving most of those posts to a seperate section and deals with the complaint that you can’t skip posts if they are hopelessly intertwined with every discussion here. Finally, it addresses the concerns of many who think that newcomers might be misinformed by not knowing that there is a commercial interest behind a poster’s opinions.

2

now this sounds like a good idea
where have you been. it sounds like it could be put into place, but how would you regulate it?
cougar

3

I think a Manufacturers forum is a good idea EXCEPT that the idea of preventing any individual from discussing CBTF ,canting keels or square top rigs outside of a specific box is ludicrous; all of those technologies are bigger than me personally(or any designer/builder) and are presented here on this forum FOR FREE to any individuals that ask.And there are dozens of individuals actually working with this technology all over the world-and more and more posting here.
Trying to control the discussion of such concepts in this way is totally wrong and is not in the spirit of free and open discussion.
But a place where a manufacturer can specifically post new product announcements or milestones seems like a good idea-except that few manufacturers would want to subject themselves to the vagaries of a forum-in magazines they don’t have to deal with negative posters from the Last Century. But using Roy’s idea as an excuse for banning certain individuals from the discussion of certain topics and new classes is just short sighted and wrong…
MORE: All manufacturers boats use masts, sails, rudders, keels,hulls-and that would be very hard to decide, wouldn’t it? I mean ,ok, that manufacture sells sails with his boats so axe his post about sails? And that manufacturer used the word “hydrofoil” even though he has boats for sale with hydrofoils, or square top rigs, etc so you axe that too? It just wouldn’t work if the idea is a free exchange of information because there are legitimate new technologies used (so far) by only one manufacturer but not necessarily limted to one manufacturer like hydrofoils ,t-foil rudders, canting keel boats, Power Ballast Systems? ,Wing Tip Rigs?—all of which are open to ANY manufacturer. Then there are the variations of lateral resistance possible with a canting keel boat like daggerboards, centerboards, CBTF–all are interrelated and all can be brought up in a single discussion.Ideas like collective steering common to only CBTF but being used or about to be used by at least three boat owners on this forum and I’m 100% sure there are others interested as well.
The idea here is clearly to regulate ideas and thats a really bad and unenforceble idea I assure you…
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

4

Well, guess what??I have to agree with Doug here?.., but not for entirely the same reasons. I do feel that any terms that have been trademarked need to be avoided in all of these general discussions, so a Manufactures Forum would make a tidy place for them to be. The problem I see is that if in fact the misleading performance values of these trademarks continue in a Manufacturers Forum, are we no longer able to go in there and question them as to there validity? And if we were, would it end up becoming a place that one could unfairly corner any manufacturer that has posted there and blast them with insults because they were unhappy with their product?
It all comes down to this unfortunately. Only one manufacturer here takes advantage of forums like this. This new Manufacturers Forum certainly will not contain the ?forum abuse? type post of this one manufacturer and would at the same time only protect him from the ones that question the foundations of such post?
Yes, I could see this as a real advantage to many of the manufacturers out there that do nothing more then inform us of factual information, like how, when, and where, without making spectacular unfounded claims.
It could be moderated, but I see that as a challenging task that Chad is not willing to take on. Unfortunately Chad still does not seem to even see the problem as of yet. I wonder what people here would say if Graham Bantock were here everyday posting about, ?My bulbs are revolutionary, the very best, no one else has even thought of them and they will make all of your boats go faster then any boat without them. They are available through Great basin MY or directly through me at ??? ?

Again, I feel that you are doing something that is attempting to contain such Forum abuse, but I, myself, would rather doubt that it would succeed in doing so. .

5

Doug Lord suggests that limiting a manufactuer (in this case him) to talking about canting keels, CBTF, moving ballast, hydrofoils and the other products he is “pushing” only in a manufactuer’s corner is wrong because of wide spread interest in these topics from others around the world.

Contrary to his statement, statistics are pretty clear in this area. Essentially, of all the threads on this board on topics such as canting keels, shifting balast, CBTF, foils, etc. the overwhelming majority have been started by Doug himself. Moreover, a more detailed examination of how many times such concepts have been injected into other threads gives the same statistical answer–by overwhelming margins, Doug is the only person inseting discussion of these “ideas” into other non-related threads (example, on threaded discussions of both the F-48 nightmare and on land sailors, Doug brought up the topic of moving ballast, something otherwise not mentioned by any other poster in the thread).

Nevertheless, and even in light of the above, let me make the following modified suggestion to respond to Doug’s concern-- Manufactuers would be permitted to post about their proprietary ideas outside of the Manufactuer’s Corner when either (a) a discussion is started by some third party on such subject or (b) the manufactuer’s participation is specifically requested.

And finally, to respond to GregV’s concern, let me suggest that the Manufactuer’s Corner section be broken down into two parts just as done by magazines --First, an Annoucements Section where manufactuers will post basically press and product releaeses describing new products, pricing availability and corporate news to which no responses would be allowed and a Discussion Section where manufactuers can start threads about their designs, thinking, claims and developments whereby the public could respond.

As to the issue of policing the system, should be easy; if a manufactuer gets into an inappropriate area someone can report the post and the moderator’s can make it go away. If no one objects, I guess the post was in the right place.

Again, I think this could be a way to end a lot of the noise and make this a much more productive place. And at no time am I suggesting limiting what anyone can say, just controlling where they can say it.

6

[:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!]
EXCUSE ME!!! Doug Lord has just re-written practically his entire post AFTER I had already posted!! Almost 1 ? hours after his original post and 20 min after mine.

ALL HERE! Why would any of you stand for this nonsense! Chad, ???.?

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Mr. Vasilev: your assertion of me "re-writing "my original post is untrue and hogwash.I rewrote NOTHING! I added a long section under the title :“More”
Further the only other poster here when I did my edit was Cougar!!!
Roy: your idea would never work without totally defeating the meaning and character of this forum which is to provide information on all aspects of rc sailing and to FOSTER discussions of New Classes, and emerging Technologies…
But I like the idea of a “press release” type of thing except for the negative posters- damn few manufacturers have the guts to post on a forum where there lifes work may be torn to shreds by any illinformed individual posting for whatever ulterior motive…

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

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<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by lorsail

Mr. Vasilev: your assertion of me "re-writing "my original post is untrue and hogwash.I rewrote NOTHING! I added a long section under the title :“More”
Further the only other poster here when I did my edit was Cougar!!! …
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>

You know Doug…

forget it

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You know ,Greg-I won’t forget it: you made a big mistake! I saw the trash you wrote and then removed from your last post.
I don’t know if it was webtv or what but when I added to my first post the only other posts that showed up were Cougar and Langbord. I added to my first post and thought that by using the word “More” I would have indicated sufficiently where the additional comments started.I did not rewrite a single word from the original post!

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

10

I doubt that Graham Bantock would want or need to post a personal plug for his products - their on the water performance speak for themselves in regattas all over the world. No brag, just fact.

sorry - this is in response to GregV’s post below - I have not figured out how to include quotations yet.

11

doug
how did i get into trouble over this? i didnot edit anything. I have always been above board with you. I think your spinaker is a good idea, but i dont like your canting keels. I have said that before, what i say, i say. i just dont understand the whole keel thing. but now i geuss i am in one camp or the other.
simply put. i just want to start the the new class and if anybody want to help me fine. i will never turn down a hand that will help me.
as to what people are saying here about graham., he stuff is great. period. i dont think he would have to defend he stuff here. i have talked withthe MAN and he is all class. and i for one have never been steered wrong by him. if he said right , this minute to go out and by his buld. it would improve my IOM performance. i would. period. he has helped me many times, and proved himself to me. graham even introduced me to his competeors. and told me to buy form them. because i would get it cheaper
Cougar

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[:-hypnotized]I?m in the freaking Twilight Zone???

…think it’s time…[:-boggled]

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http://tzone.the-croc.com/sounds/tzone2.wav

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lol that was funny…completely off topic …i know!!

Wis

if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it!

http://wismerhell.esmartdesign.com/index.htm

15

Whew baby!!! This is why we have The Pub, eh? grin

(Remember - it’s just a hobby for everyone except the manufacturers)

Roy’s post ain’t a bad idea! One thing, though: I (and a few others) noticed that after the inception of the new forum setup, traffic seemed to drop off a lot. This was partially due to the separation of what had formerly been a single, large column into multiple, ‘themed’ areas. Another area would further break up the continuity - and I think the manufacturers might be a little concerned that nobody would ‘look’ in there - thereby further reducing their visibility to us, the huddled masses.

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats. Kenneth Graeme, Wind in the Willows.

16

very funny children
the twilight zone, maybe we should take a break from this attacking and go about our bussiness. doug so far has been above board with me. and the music. suit some ppl here. and i will not name names. they now who they are
cougar