International classes

Rcsailing.net General Discussion
1

Well I think it is time for the international classes to be put on hold.
Most of these classes have no room at the hobby store counters. they are expensive, all go the same speed.

Regattas should be worked out on the fastest boat should be the winner. Now the first boat over the line is the winner. The fastest boat seldom gets over the line first. All these international boats are worked out on a formular to help people make money, for organisations to thrive for owning their class.

The rules on these international classes are complicated, hard to work out, need special things to get them measured /registered, to what end.

It has come to the time where the only one that had any shape to it , they canned and it was that 12 metre.

For too long common sense has not prevailed in this sport. All classes should fit into 2 catagories ,bought boats over the counter or boats measure in length only. in the last class the length is the only measurement.

2

Dick would be pretty happy with such dirt simple rules, multies will win every time. Just to be 100% clear I mean no offence to Dick, or multi-hull guys.

3

Ohhhh Dan ----------

You make me sooooooo mad !!! :evil: Just kidding of course.

In reality, I could give a crap (anymore) about what is and what isn’t recognized by a few people at the international level - and maybe even at the local/national level. I find it strangely amusing that ISAF and indirectly US Sailing and AMYA seem to be able to disengage themselves from a completely different type and design of sailing craft. If it isn’t a monohull with lead hanging from below, it isn’t worthy of mention or promotion. Almost like denial of a solar system beyond ours.

Before I get flamed, I am not suggesting any recognition before they meet minimum numbers, but I am suggesting the acknowledgment that such a class/type of boat exists. Yes they tip over, but yes they are probably two-three times as fast. The old stereotypes and myths continue to be prepetuated by those who have never given the type (or class) a chance, who haven’t seen them compete, and probably never will. Yet these voices are heard, and it makes the job of selling the class even that more difficult.

We lost a forum participant who was very pro-foiler oriented (among other things). His product worked, but maybe wasn’t practical for weed infested lakes or light air. Nothing wrong with his ideas, Nothing wrong with the concepts - just got caught up with his own hype - and a demonstrated superiority of his ideas never happened. From that point is was a downward spiral.

In general, the members of this forum have been tolerant of multihulls. I wish we could have some decent dialog BASED ON FACT - not conjecture for canting keels as well… And if discussion would have been kept to facts, with actual products demonstrated to prove the ideas, we all might have different views. In the meantime, I am willing to provide what answers and opinions I can for multihulls - for those with interest, but have given up trying to change minds and force trimarans or catamarans on to others. Several participants have left the forum for personal reasons, but the type of boat that is (comparatively) of lighter weight, faster speed, and a challenge to sail - exists. Nothing requires all to adopt it, sail it, build it, etc. - but like any class - I’ll do what I damn well like. If you accept it, great - if you don’t I really don’t care.

Dan - you are among the group who seems to keep an open mind, and who also seems to accept the concept on non-monohull boats as part of the sailing community. Too bad more aren’t likewise enlightened.

Enough - it’s almost New Year here so end of rant for 2005!

Dan - you are never forgiven, for you have never crossed the line with stupid, inane comments. An open mind for all classes and types of boats would do us all a lot of good.

Added ----- As for simple rules, with few exceptions, we (F-48 Class) have them … only length, width and sail area … that’s it. Anyone care to show me any class with fewer rules - I’m open to acknowledge them.

4

Errr - perhaps this belongs within the framework of “Forum Problems” - or maybe in “Multihulls” ?

And to further opine - I’m not sure why I would take offense?

Our F-48 rules allow a builder to build and experiment within only a few parameters. Length (as we all know longer is generally faster) - Width ( which equals righting moment - you monohull guys equate this to weight of lead and/or depth of keel) - and of course Sail Area (Horsepower). I’m not sure how you would effectively have boats on equal playing fields without these three basic dimensions unless you are advocating what is happening in big boats these days (example: The “arms” race such as between WILD OATS and ALPHA ROMEO) That or a handicap system which would be pretty hard to manage, and no one would be happy.

After discussion with a few “muckety-mucks” at the International level, I am still waiting for the challenge to them (or anyone) to show me why we need more rules. We have the maximum physical characteristics of the platform. We have the vertical surface sail (propulsion) area, and because of control lines, and existing ISAF Racing Rules (overlaps and such) we have elected to eliminate kite sails. Not sure why or what additional ones we would need or require.

Let’s see … a few issues within other classes…but not ours

  1. Multiple rigs - we allow them (ala Team Phillips) Two or more masts are fine.
  2. Lead on a keel if desired - we allow it … or not - your choice
  3. Spinnakers - we allow them within total sail area limits
  4. Moveable ballast - we allow it
  5. Canting rigs - we allow them
  6. Solid wing sails, wing masts, uni-rigs, sleeve-luff sails - we allow them
  7. Foils - we allow them
  8. Mast tip floatation - we allow it
  9. Circular travellers, swing rigs, 4 radio channels for controls - we allow them
  10. Boat measurements prior to racing - we don’t require them (but owner responsible to prove sizes if protest is filed) Cuts down on time to measure, weigh, etc.
  11. Advertising - we allow ( and indirectly allow sponsorships)
  12. Weight - no minimum, no maximum - your choice.
  13. depth/size/shape of daggerboard, rudder, etc. - no limit

I know of no other class that is this open for development and for new ideas like this one. We don’t choke or stifel development. Perhaps this isn’t your game - but we certainly don’t criticize you for not playing. As noted a few times to certain posters - if you want to try something within this framework - we are open for development ideas. Unlike other classes, we resisted the urge to mandate a lot of stuff that others do - and that doesn’t contibute or impact performance. As a famous shoemaker says - “JUST DO IT !”

So Steve (and other readers) - we have taken your sugested approach and I think we have it just right - now it is up to you if anyone wants to “play” with us, or just talk behind our backs… either way, please don’t suggest these opportunities aren’t available.

5

:timebomb:
Well Steve, that is a most interesting observation.
Mostly rubbish, but interesting in the sense that it may provoke a response from people like me who will bite at what I presume is a baited hook, cast to do just that, reel in the fighters. :goldfish: :boxing:

Each of the International Classes has something special to make it what it is.

To suggest that the formula used for their design and development is a “PLOT” devised to make money for individuals or class associations suggests to me a feeling of “Paranoia” in the extreme. :mes:
Yes these models are expensive. So is any equipment used to compete in any sport at national or international level.
Each of the International Classes has a different appeal for different reasons.
A Class; large, tonnage type rating formula, smooth response, can favour various ends of the scale of design. The longest establised model yacht class.
10 Rater; The formula one of model yachts, open design to length X sail area formula, wingmasts, multi channel, pretty much anything allowed. I see this as the world leader in monohull development. Over 100 years old so must have something to appeal.
RM;The Indycar of model yachts, restricted design formula, exciting to sail, highly developed by some extremely clever designers, was the most numerous before the advent of the IOM.
International One Metre; I was involved in the establishment of this class, being on the Technical Committee of the IMRYU as it was in those days.
As a result of a worldwide questionaire the results of which told us that all countries favoured the same thing, the class was proposed that met those requests.
One metre long, fixed sail plans, low tech construction, set maximum bulb & minimum all up weights, simple rig, two channel control.
The rest as they say is history. The IOM is now the most numerous class worldwide and thriving.

The quoted post reads to me as if the suggestion is, that the winner of a regatta should be the fastest boat, not the first over the line. I hope I have interpreted that wrongly. If that ment that the only criteria to win was a drag race then that is just silly.
The winner of any yachting regatta has to be the skipper and crew who have the best understanding of their boat, it`s tuning, the elements on the day, the rules & tactics as applicable for that event, hopefully all applied with a large dash of sportsmanship.

Dont worry dear readers, Steve and myself have known each other since the early eightys and will get to “sink a couple” in February when we meet up in person in SYDNEY. It maybe pistols at 20 paces but we will always be friends.

6

I?m going to respectively disagree with you here when it comes to the IOM class. I don?t think it?s the formula, but issues related to the class. I can think of two that left a bad taste in my mouth. I don?t follow the classes closely so my facts might be a little off, but I remember a proposal to set a minimum keel fin thickness, that was voted down, and the Black Magic sails issue. Both of these seem to be a slap in the face of the homebuilders, and low end providers, and a helping hand to the big names in are hobby.

7

Dan, I am happy to answer your points and don`t worry mate I will never take any offence at well presented points of view. That is what a forum is for is it not.
I can see your concern at the decisions taken on both these points and suggest the following;
The proposal to restrict the thinness of fins.
The proposers of this restriction were concerned that it was getting to the silly stage when fins were down to 5mm in thickness and becoming difficult for the home builder to make succesfully.
Enough fin makers of all skill levels were happy to continue to experiment with thickness and construction methods without restrictions to make the adoption of this rule most unpopular. It was declined.
The Black Magic sails issue is another matter and I would agree that the decision made on that subject was not to my liking either.
I must admit here to a friendship with Alec Newald of Black Magic, but that does not cloud my judgment hopefully.
I have also met Grahame Bantock and I would defend his honour as an honest gentleman also.
If the wrong decision was made in either case it was not made as part of any evil master plan to rule the model yacht world, IMHO.
I firmly believe we are all on the same team. The goal of which is to develop encourage and oversee the building and racing of radio controlled model yachts as a serious sport. As stated before elsewhere it should also be fun.
All those who would like to join that team please raise their hand. :jump4:

I have been asked before how come a class that is supposed to be simple has so many rules.
My answer always is, “to keep it simple it is necessary to make rules to stop clever buggers from finding loopholes to make it complicated.”
We are all trying to make our restricted design faster than your restriced design to give us just that little edge to win.
Keeping it simple and fair is not an easy task.

8

[quote=IanHB].
I firmly believe we are all on the same team. The goal of which is to develop encourage and oversee the building and racing of radio controlled model yachts as a serious sport.
:jump4:
What part do national org,s play in this team ?
is the team built from the ground up or the other way round ? (thoughts of the tail wagging the dog)My thoughts are with out the team leader the team seem to wander of and do there own thing.a point in question is the decline in clubs and membership here abouts.
or is that another thread ???:spin:

9

Ian,

I don?t think it?s a plan to take over the model yachting world. It?s just seems to me that to much bias is given to the high end builders, considering the class was originally designed to be a class for the masses.

For example (only as an example) I consider myself a modeler of above average skill, and I think I would be hard pressed to be able to produce a keel that was 5mm thick, that had good lift and drag characteristics, but Bannock on the other has it pretty easy with his access to high end software and cnc etc.

I guess what I?m trying to say is that the IOMICA should be doing everything in its power to keep it as easy as possible for the beginners to be competitive at all levels of competition, at least from an equipment standpoint. Even if it hurts the manufactures a little.

My final comment would be that if something isn?t done by sane people, to get the costs of these boats under control, the IOM class is going to eventually fade away.

10

My final comment would be that if something isn?t done by sane people, to get the costs of these boats under control, the IOM class is going to eventually fade away.

And when we came out with the Epoch IOM as a reasonable alternative for the modeler wanting to get in to entry level IOM racing, we received nothing but degrading comments form all of the religious fanatics who want to keep the IOM class as “pure” as possible.

Comments like, and I quote…
“Don?t pollute our class with your low end products.”
“Why don’t you race one of your cheap boats in a national event to prove its design”
“Your design will never be competitive with a top IOM”

The people who made these comments know who you are. A quick search of this and other sites will quickly show who they are as well.

I can tell you that receiving comments like this not only hurt the class, but also hurt me personally as I spent a lot of time designing what I thought was a reasonable alternative for the sport modeler.
If the idea is to keep the class exclusive, you have all done a great job.
I would think you would want as many new modelers coming in to make the class grow as you could get. Having a lower cost alternative is a great way to get new modelers involved. You should be supporting it with open arms rather than trying to get rid of it because it’s bloodlines may infect the purity of a class.
The beginning modeler will almost always “move up” with better equipment if they feel welcome at the beginning. Shunning them because they may not have the top equipment available is a sure way to never have them come back.

Just a thought.

11

With respect, I do think this particular comment holds a lot of weight. I can think of at least two people who researched all the major international and national events to see what designs placed high. They then purchased the highest placing boat their budget allowed.

I think publicizing low priced boats finishing well in big events would be of great help to the class. As an example I think to many people purchase Bantock boats, because they think the design is what allowed him to finish well, totally discounting the fact that he is an exceptional sailor, and that more than anything dictates how he finishes. Maybe he will swallow some pride, and race one of his strip planked designs at the next worlds.:idea_125::smile_lol:jump::rasta:

12

The beginning modeler will almost always “move up” with better equipment if they feel welcome at the beginning. Shunning them because they may not have the top equipment available is a sure way to never have them come back.
Well said

13

Haven’t been here for a while since I didn’t think there was much I could add, but this slightly weird discussion brought me back.

First, to attack the “international classes” is just wacky. Last I checked every successful racing series (be it boats or cars or airplanes, large or small) has class rules. “International Classes” are simply those that are popular in a number of countries around the world. And like everything else over time they change in nature and popularity. A boats and Ten Raters currently have low participation. IOMs are at their peak. The rules for all of these classes have changed over time. What is the problem? (Oh, and by the way, these different boats sure as heck don’t “all go the same speed”).

Second, I don’t understand the point of the comment about what you can and can’t buy over the counter in a hobby shop. At least here in the US, virtually every “hobby shop” mass produced boat has an AMYA sanctioned class (Victoria, CR914, Seawind, Fairwind, r/c Laser etc.).

Third, just to get the facts straight about the IOM minimum keel thickness issue. The IOM rule as originally written did not have a minimum keel thickness requirement. Only years later did someone propose to change the rules regarding keel thickness. Unfortunately adopting this change would have made illegal at maximum all and at minimum a vast number of keels. Virtually no one thought this was a good idea. The good news is that ultra thin keels in fact don’t work very well. The bad news is that like any other class, regardless of the rules the professionals can build better, stronger lighter than the vast majority of home builders.

Fourth, and finally, there is not a single person in the IOM class that I am aware of that would not welcome a low cost competitive boat or that “shuns” beginners. In fact, I know at least two people who are looking at trying to produce a kit in the $200 to $300 range and both have received nothing but encouragement from the class members and association.

On the other hand, as Dan Sherman pointed out, calling for the Climax IOM to appear at a regatta is not a put down-- it is nothing more than a desire to let people see the boat and how it performs. I for one would love to see the Climax or any inexpensive IOM finish at the top end of a major race.

14

Comments like, and I quote…
Don?t pollute our class with your low end products

who cares? Prove your boats are worth their price and THEY all will shut up

Why don’t you race one of your cheap boats in a national event to prove its design

national event might be a bit big…but having results HELPS…like it or not, but that is how people are! If you can’t understand that, stop selling boats!

Your design will never be competitive with a top IOM
very stupid comment…OF COURSE NOT…see the price tag! don’t compare an Indy / F1 car with…an usual car!
The people who made these comments know who you are. A quick search of this and other sites will quickly show who they are as well.

I can tell you that receiving comments like this not only hurt the class, but also hurt me personally as I spent a lot of time designing what I thought was a reasonable alternative for the sport modeler.

don’t like comments?! stop selling boats!

15

Roy, glad to see you’re back.

16

I have purposely kept out of this because I race IOMs. And I do have an epoch. The comments that climate posted. I have received, when I showed up with epoch.
DTC the comment you made about spending money to win. Buying an f1 as compared to an Indy car. Just does not make sense. If you want to make a real comparisons talk MacLean and bar. F1 is a different class than Indy car. I have been racing IOMs for over 15 years. And enjoy the class alot. When climate came out with epoch .I was one of the first to say I want one. The boat is good. And in the hands of somebody who know what they are doing. It is quite good. Epoch was never meant to be competitive with a ts2 or an ikon. Now I could be wrong with this. You would have to ask peter about that. But if you want to compete, and you did not have an IOM. What would you like to spend the $1000 for the epoch or the $4000 you would need for ikon or ts2. I am including the radio.
As a designer, who considers himself half decent, MY first good IOM was winning small event. But people in my own club, people who did not have a sailboat, calling my boat the b and b boat. ?Bed sheets and broomstick". That hurt. But as I passed almost all of the other boats I grew pride in what I had designed. It still hurts, when people call it the b and b boat.
The international class is a good idea. As we can buy a boat and race it anywhere. The rules that affect me here in Canada, also affect those in Australia and Britain. The only bad thing about the classes, is that we have alot of them. almost every other week we seem to have another class started. So for the first time sailor, what do you send him too?
My wife got my old IOM and she raves in only one event. And why? The people in the Barrie model yacht club. They are great sailors and great people. We have clubs all around, where I live. And sail all types. I can hold my own, BUT she can?t. It is all about attitude. If you make a mistake you don?t need to get ticked off. Get the person to do a 360 and get ON WITH IT. But alot of people just hold on until after the race. This is why alot of people get turn off. The IOM class is a great class to run. Just right now. You have to spend money. Until there are people like myself and climate. Who prove, that you do not need to spend alot of money to win. Right now. I think I have the hull. Just don?t have the sails. Working on the right now
cougar
[LEFT]ss[/LEFT]

17

Just to give some perspective, (i) competitive IOMs don’t cost $4000; (ii) the Ikon has been superceded by a whole series of newer designs from Graham Bantock; (iii) I have attended most of the major IOM races over the last few years and no one is out attacking newbies or putting down home built or one off boats. In fact I would say that the most suprising thing about major interntational races is how helpful everyone is. I know more than a few very well known r/c sailors who went out of their way to help other less experienced competitors even when it distracted from their own racing.

18

Hi Roy -
I too welcome you back.

As a participant, and for the average potential buyer - where can one find what boats, homebuilt, finished in what position? I would guess, that homebuilts finishing at any of the higher level of competition might be few and far between - lending some credence to other’s feelings voiced here. Is it fair to say that Graham, sailing one of his own boats is sailing a “homebuilt”? Not sure, but it is honest and factual. So if we include one “Bantock” boat, and one “Beyerly” boat, and so on - will we eventually see a gaggle (cool word!) of the true amateur home-builts clustered around (or spread around) in final standings? At the last worlds, and at the last US Nationals - where did true homebuilts place in final standings - if there were any? If the IOM was to cater to home builders - where are all those boats?

I think this is what the potential buyer looks at - finishing position - along with cost. Heck - even some 36/600’s out of Arizona are on the selling block for around $1500 - so a $500 IOM (production built) certainly would have appeal and interest of a new sailor. But comparing even a $1200 IOM to a 1 Meter “plastic” boat isn’t a very honest comparison.

The decision for Climate models to offer and sell a boat that meets IOM standards is one thing - and the same IOM being sold being a competitive boat with a proven track record is another. In the end, it’s the buyer who has to make the decision after doing their homework.

I do concur, that big boats or small - there is always some willing to help others - or explain stuff to new sailors. I guess I wonder how a new sailor can make it to a National event without being competitive or somewhat knowledgeable? In my case, questions about tuning were made on shore or in the bar after the day’s racing - certainly not as someone was setting up their boats, tuning, etc. before the day of racing. To me, “that” would be bad manners on the part of the person seeking information or education. Just my view, of course.

EDIT - ADDED: I just did a quick internet search and found quite a few events where the mak eof the boat isn’t even listed - making it difficult to identify a home design/built boat. I did find the 2004 Euorpean Results, which may support the theory that a home made boat might have a chance …

1 - Bantock - Topiko
2 - Stollery - Isotonic
3 - Borim - Ikon
4 - Scharmer - Scharming - identified as home design/build
5 - Klem - Cockatoo

Unfortunately - no lower places were listed - but some of the photos showed what “could be” home made boats.

19

http://rcyachts.net/iomworlds/ A few homebuilders were there!..especially the Germans!! European Championship…Germans, French and Portuguese=homebuilders!

The decision for Climate models to offer and sell a boat that meets IOM standards is one thing - and the same IOM being sold being a competitive boat with a proven track record is another. In the end, it’s the buyer who has to make the decision after doing their homework.
AMEN PS: Cougar, never heard of McClean and bar…though McClaren and B.A.R. yes! but that is another story http://www.spellcheck.net/

20

Just an FYI Cougar thinks in Canadian dollars ( I have tried to make him think the American way). I stopped by the sailsetc website, and grabbed the purchasing spreadsheet (see attached.). A complete Topiko hull would cost me 1234.89 pounds convert that to us dollars and we get $2161 USD.

We still need:

3 rig kits ~$130 each from GBMY
A, B and C sails $115 each from GBMY
An RMG winch ~$190 from GBMY
And let?s say $75 for radio gear.

Gives us a total of $3161 USD

If we start adding in battery packs, extra crystals, a decent charger, back up servo and winch I can see dropping close to 4K Canadian with out to much trouble.