Our small lakes now have a coating of ice.it would be perfect for a R/C iceboat, but I am concerned with the following problem: if your ice boat capsized, got in irons,or the battery failed, how would I recover the boat? The ice is too thin to walk on, I don’t have a dog to Fetch. Any suggestions would be appreciated. I am thinking of using a potato cannon to fire a hooking device on the end of a monofiliment line which could be reeled in with the boat attached[:-banghead]
R.M.Thomson
Ron,
I have cntemplated this myself.
If the pond is small enough, you should be able to walk the perimeter of the pond with a long line and loop it around the boat and slide it to shore. Secure one end of the line with a stake in the ground. Then walk around the pond with the other end of the line. The line will slide along the surface of the ice. Keep walking until the line wraps around your boat and then pull it to shore.
Another idea is to use a fishing rod with a weight and a non-barbed hook. If the pond is small enough, you should be able to cast the line to the other side of the boat such that the slack drapes over the boat. Then, you reel it in while the line is draped over the boat and hopefully the hook will snag something (hopefully a stay and not the sail) and you just reel it in to shore.
Good luck!
Will Gorgen
Ron,
If you’ve got ice already, it won’t be long before you’ll be able to walk on it safely. It only takes 2" of good ice to support a 160# person, although when it’s that thin, extreme care should be taken. I usually take a cordless drill with a spade bit to measure thickness. Beware of areas with current or springs. We won’t have safe ice in this area for another 6 weeks or so.
BTW Will, your old friend & scow competitor Erich Schloemer is getting his model stern steerer out of storage & hopes to get it on the ice this winter. It sounds like it has quite a powerful rig: he says his sail servo is rated at 40"-# torque & was stripping metal gears. Also, Tony Johnson & I hope to have a regatta this winter, probably in the Twin Cities or Madison.
Regards,
Bill
http://www.iceboat.org/RCBoats/rc%20boats.htm
http://www.ircssa.org
ps to Will: Nice features about the Fairwind in the latest AMYA quarterly
a bit off topic…I always wondered…would it be possible to make them go on snow…tons of snow, not much ice
Thanks
Wis
_/ if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it! _
Wis
I think if you made a set of ski’s it should work. I am thinking you would have to have a small rib running down the bottom to “cut” in on the snow to help with turns. Simular to the ski found on snowmobles.
Now is there plans for ice boats that a person can dl? Winter is coming fast here. Most mornings there is ice on the ponds and this would be a great time to start building one. Lots of outdoor ice rinks here also so no lack of places to sail.
Jeff
Alberta
I like the suggestion from WIS about skis.We don’t have ice very long before it is snow covered.Howevwe a snow surface becomes lumpy which would make sailing difficult, and also there’s problems with slush.
It’s worth a try.
Ron
R.M.Thomson
Oh Man!
Erich still has that boat?!?!? That thing was awesome! I only saw it sailing once, but it was really cool.
If you see him, say hi to him for me!
I have Tony’s blue Nite in my garage on loan from my brother in law, Pete Johanson. I’m making a few repairs (servo mounts were damaged). It still has the wheels on it, but Pete has a set of blades for it. I hope we can get it out on the ice this winter. If we do, I will instal my GPS and give you guys a run for the record
Glad you enjoyed the Fairwind issue.
Will Gorgen
Ron
Not knowing what part of Ontario you are in. I can only comment of how the ice was in Northern Western Ontario. (talking Kenora on Lake of the Woods) ANd here in Alberta.
Growing up there I remember the lakes would usally freeze over then become covered in snow. Many times there was snow before ice. Anyways if you find a area that the snow has blown into (sheltered bay) you should be able to sail here.The snow will compact on it’s own. Leaving a crust that you can sail on and walk on. Yes slush could be a problem. But if you checked out the area you should be able to avoid it.
Another option would be to get all the buddies that own snowmoblies to run over the area thus packing the snow in place. After you would smooth the area by dragging a flat board behind you. This would be simular as how the ski hills smooth out the runs.
Another option if you have the energy is to clear a area on the lake for a skateing rink. Make it over sized . Maybe snag the kids in the area to help. THis is great pr for you as you make the hockey rink and a ice sailing area at the same time.
Now in Alberta any out door rink is at the mercy of Chinnook winds (warm winds from the mountains) Have seen it -20c and by noon be +15. So lots of melting and freezing can happen. Also with the winds we get here most of the time the snow in the fields is blown away. thus sailing would have to be done with both ski’s and wheels.
I guess it comes down to how much work a person wants to put into the sport as to how the sailing (land or water)will be.
as a side note we are still riding the motorcycles here.
Jeff
Alberta
Hi Jeff:
Just to let you know, my location is Thunder Bay, not that far from Kenora. We have 10 below Celsius at night, enough to freeze the surface, but still not much snow.If I remember right, aircraft skis are surfaced with teflon to make them slippery. Maybe I can find some to make skis about 5 inches long.
Ron
R.M.Thomson
Jeff, Wis & Ron,
Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings, but sailing on snow is a “no go”.
Just too much friction & drag. The only exception would be the rare occasion when a thaw or rainfall is followed by colder temps, leaving a stiff crust on the surface. Actually, I recall doing this as a kid, with wind driven sleds made out of popsicle sticks & paper sails.
In some latitudes we are blessed with periodic thaws which returns the pond or lake ice to good condition. Lacking that, we look for municipal skating rinks of sufficient size to accomodate these craft. Of course, it’s best to stay clear of the ice skaters, as these things have documented speeds exceeding 30 mph.
The more reliable option is to remove the ice runners & install wheels to use on unused parking lots. This extends the season to all year round. Also, there’s an annual regatta on Dry Lake Ivanpah in conjunction with the dirtboaters’ “America’s Cup” (http://www.nalsa.org )
Jeff, there were plans on an Italian website available for download, but when I tried to bring up the URL, it appears to be unavailble at the moment. If you’re really interested, contact me off the forum & I can put you in direct contact with them. Also, there are several good kits & plans that can be found on links at http://www.ircssa.org
Will, you’ll have alot of fun with the Nite. I sailed one of Tony’s a couple years ago, but managed to crash it into a bystander & broke the plank. DOH!! FYI, John Kuhn from Bay City, Mi, is building a large model in an attempt to break the speed record.
Regards,
Bill
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by Bill Korsgard
…FYI, John Kuhn from Bay City, Mi, <hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
Cool !!! Just 1/2 hour drive from my old home town. Will need to hook up with him on next trip back - probably next spring.
Bill - can you email me with a contact for him when you get a chance, so I can get in touch and set up a time/date when we are ready to drive back next spring - (no rush). Maybe I can get some photos of his builds. Thanks.
Bill:
Your mention of wheels reminds me of an iceboat from England that was going to try for a speed record on ice.The boat had discs in place of the usual bladed runners, the sails were airfoils. The speed attempt didn’t happen, bad ice, no wind, their radar devices were swiped. The equipment was shipped back to England
Ron
R.M.Thomson
Yeah Bill,
The Nite is great. It is the blue one with the silver stripes that Tony used to show on his website. The sail on that boat was too big (it was the prototype rig) and he could not sell the boat, so he gave it to my brother in law Pete for free. I’ve had it out sailing a few times (that is how it got broken in the first place!!!).
The wheel kit is cool and there is a great parking lot right near work where I can sail it. It is a Movie theater and they rarely have any cars parked their at noon on a weekday, so I can pop over at luch time, switch on the battery and sail for 45 minutes or so before I have to return to work.
I use 2 US1M bulbs as ballast. I have protective tubes for them and I just stuff them into the cockpit on either side of the rudder servo and use some sponge rubber blocks to hold them in place. If the wind is lighter, I only use one of the bulbs. If I ever finish my US1M, I may need to find some other heavy objects to use as ballast.
Gotta get that repair done so I can get back at it…
Will Gorgen
Ron,
I think you’re referring to the Windjet project: http://www.windjetproject.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=18&Itemid=53
As far as I know, they’ve always used more or less conventional ice runners, as I have trouble visualizing how steel discs would work very well. They switch over to wheels for land based speed attempts & I see they’re trying a kite powered “sled” for their softwater efforts.
Will
Wow, 2 US1M bulbs must weigh 7 or 8 pounds. That must be a very powerful rig. If nothing else, that sort of momentum will encourage competitors to stay clear [:D].
Regards,
Bill
Hey Bill,
Yeah, it is about 8 lbs of ballast. I have flown a wheel with that weight a couple times, but only in a serious blow. This time of year it seems to always be blowing…
Normally one bulb is plenty but the boat is so quick that I thought two would make it a little safer while I get used to handling her at such high speeds. I had those bulbs laying in my basement for my US1M project, so I just grabbed 'em. Before that we had tried using a paver brick for ballast.
Do you think we may need to get a little more serious about finding more appropriate ballast with smaller increments?
Well, before I race against anyone, I will probably find a better way to ballast up the boat…
Will Gorgen
Will,
As you well know, any design process involves compromise. With that much ballast you’ve sacrificed some acceleration, but gained stability & momentum. I usually use only about 10 oz ballast made out of a piece of 1/2" electrical conduit filled with 5/16" steel nuts, but this will still hike up & capsize in a gust. Other considerations to acheive the same (or better) end result include changing rig size/shape & widening your plank. Lately I’ve been playing around with softening the plank for better gust absorbsion. As the plank deflects down, the side stays will slacken which allows more “slop” in the rig, thereby spilling air.
Regards,
Bill
Hmmm…
Shaving your plank, eh? Next your gonna try the flexible spars like the DN’s, eh?
Yeah, I know the comprimises with weight. My main goal right now it to be able to blast around the parking lot at the local movie theater at lunchtime while sitting on the tailgate of my SUV. The nice thing about being heavy is that I don’t capsize and the boat carries a lot of momentum through the tacks so I never get “stuck”.
If I was ever going to race, I would certainly do a bit more to optimize the boat.
BTW, the fastest point of sail for an Iceboat (assuming an L/D of about 3 for our model boats) is about 110 degrees to the true wind. Sailing that high requires a lot of extra weight to keep from flipping. So while you pay the price of slower acceleration, I think the speed record will be broken by someone sailing just broad of beam with a lot of weight in there to carry the extra sail force when sailing that high.
For windward/leeward races, where VMG is critical, you would obviously sail a lot lighter and control the heeling by either pinching up when sailing to windward or bearing off when sailing to leeward.
Speaking of, do you guys sail with the windward boat having right of way when on the run like iceboaters do?
Will Gorgen
Will,
I’ve already been seeing how far I could push the limits of lateral mast bend. My vacuum bagged foam core wingmast using 3oz glass worked very nicely, but proved to be too weak with failure occuring on the compression side. Maybe I’ll try a narrow tow of unidirectional carbon to stiffen it up a bit.
You’re exactly correct about optimizing a design for a speed record attempt vs racing a course. Alot of ballast & distance will be desirable for the former. Iron Duck, the full sized landyacht record holder at 116 mph (www.nalsa.org ) was intentionally heavy & had an asymetrical platform intended to run on one tack. It wouldn’t have had a chance of winning a race “around the buoys”.
As far as ROW racing rules are concerned, there’s an interesting conflict between the iceboaters & dirtboaters. The iceboaters use the usual starboard/port convention (http://www.iceboat.org/images/designelements/NEIYA_rules_no_club.jpg), whereas the dirtboaters (www.fisly.org) go with an automotive based “right is right” rule. But to answer your question, windward has rights on the downwind legs. For the softwater sailors, we should explain that iceboats & landyachts never sail anywhere near to a downwind run , because the boat speed usually exceeds windspeed & VMG is best when “tacking” downwind.
Regards,
Bill
AMYA 11052
ODOM #217
So Bill,
Do RC landyachts use the “dirtboater” rules or the iceboater rules? do they sail W/L courses or beam reach courses?
I am most familiar with the iceboating rules as I raced a DN for 4 or 5 years as a teenager and then Nites for 2 years in college.
As far as what I can tell from the land yacht races, it is less of a yacht race and more of a NASCAR style car race (using wind instead of high octane gasoline). I may have it wrong, but it seems like the land yachter just weave back and forth along a course set up along a beam reach for a number of laps or a fixed amount of time (he who completes the most laps in an hour wins).
For the uninitiated, when tacking downwind in an iceboat, the windward boat has right of way over the leeward boat. There is a reason for this. When you get hit with a puff, your boat will heel up - sometimes dramatically. The only way to keep from tipping over is to bear off. Because you are travelling faster than the wind (sometimes 3 or 4 times the speed of the wind) when you bear off, your apparent wind shift FORWARD which decreases the loading on the sails and reduces the heeling moment - thereby preventing you from capsizing. So in order to not tip over, you need to be able to bear away. Thus the iceboating rules give the windward boat this right - to bear away.
And just to give you a feel for how iceboats are sailed to leeward in say a 25 mph wind, imagine laying on your back in an iceboat like this:
http://www.sailingsource.com/ice/images/jrussell/2003centrals/20030222jr%20053_b.jpg
You are doing about 50 or 60 mph as you come to the windward mark. you have overstood by about 5 or 6 boatlengths (you did this on purpose). As you approach the mark, you start to bear away. As your aparent wind shifts back, the boat starts to heel. You have only one choice - bear away HARD. You turn down (just missing hitting the mark in the process). The boat heels up to what seems like a 45 degree angle (it is probably more like 15 or 20, but it seems like a ton of heel when you are laying there) and you are sure you are going to capsize. Then as you continue to bear away, the heel of the boat stabilizes and then starts to come back down.
http://www.sailingsource.com/ice/images/dnracer3.jpg
Meanwhile, you have accelerated from 50 to 70 or 80 mph. As the boat begins to settle back down, you stop your bear away on a heading of around 150 to the true wind. As your windward runner touches the ice again, you start to head up slightly. You head up until your runner starts to lift again and then you bear away. You want to hold your boat right on the heading that causes your runner to just barely be lifting off the ice. If you do it right, the windward runner will be tapping every so lightly on the ice as you sail - tap… tap… tap… Keep in mind you might be doing 80 or 90 mph at this point. You sail is sheeted in fully and your aparent wind is 10 degrees off the bow (blowing hard in your face at 2 to 3 times the true wind speed).
http://www.sailingsource.com/ice/images/us4061.jpg
If you get hit with a puff, the windward runner will rise up and you will bear away to keep the boat from flipping over. As you bear away, the runner starts to come back down and you head up again just slightly to re-gain that tapping of the runner.
A gybe feels more like a tack as the wind is in you face the entire time. The sail luffs as you go through the gybe because even though you are headed straight downwind, you are travelling so much faster than the wind that you feel a “headwind” of 50 or 60 mph.
Your sail fills on the new gybe and you head up until you runner starts to lift again. Any speed you lost during the gybe comes back quickly as you accelerate up to speed.
Now comes the fun part - the leeward mark.
Again you overstand the mark (on purpose) but this time by maybe 10 boatlengths. As you apprach the leeward mark, you ease the sheet so that the sail is lufffing. I mean a full luff! You just let the sheet go. you slow down a little, but you are still doing 80 or so. As you get near the mark, you throw the boat into a hard turn. You runners start to skid out from under you and you are sliding sideways. You runners make a deafening “ripping” sound as they skid over the ice - The sound can be heard for miles. If you look at the marks left by the runners as you are sliding, they are actually skipping by grabbing the ice and then jumping several feet sideways and grabbing again. But it happens so quickly that you do not hear the skipping as a chatter, but rather as a rip much like the sound of a hockey player doing a carving turn - but much much louder.
As you finish your turn, you come around the buoy (which may be the nice orange tripods shown in the pictures, but is just as likely to be a traffic cone or a christmas tree resting on the ice) and are headed back up wind. You trim your sail back in as quickly as you can. You are probably still going faster than you optimal upwind VMG speed, so your boat slows down until it settles back into your 50 or 60 mph upwind speed.
http://www.sailingsource.com/ice/images/bocki.jpg
Good times!
Will Gorgen
Thanks Will - [:D]
Saginaw Bay & Tobico Marsh in Bay City - about 20 years ago before moving out here! Darnit … now where did I put all those old videos… time for some VHS to DVD conversions. My heart just picked up about 20 beats per minute. Deep breath, deep breath, deep breath … [:D]
