Future of the Footy Class

My simple answer is ‘no’.

You know divide and conquer?.. always be aware of the source.
There are so many possibilities in the footy box rule that I see no need to make changes or form an ‘open footy’ rule… basically a beam rule right?

How many years has the R36R box stood? I would be in favour of a short period of working out the little bugs (like the rudder definition) and then freeze the rule for 5 years. That may seem radical but we have discussed this before and that seemed to be the conclusion. I have been around modelling a long time (despite my youthfullness) and wherever an ‘elite’ group forms (in scale modelling, racing, whatever) that group remains very small and always considers itself the be better than the rest thus causing ill feeling and friction, especially in a place like this.

None of us are restricted to only sailing Footys… we can get out big boat, fast boat, expensive boat fixes elsewhere… let the Footy be what it is… a fascinating challenge at the a** end of RC sailing :slight_smile:

This topic seems to have moved largely to Footy Box Question in Rules and technical. Get in there! The future depends on it!

I a**ume Graham meant the AFT end??? :wink:

Bill H

No Bill, he’s geting Americanised. It should have had an extra asterisk!

Yes, Angus…he’s learning to keep it simple! :smiley:

From the nation that produced Henry James, that’s a bit thick!

Henry wh*?

Yes Bill… that’s the word I was looking for! A little lightheartedness never did any harm what!

Off to put loads more little kits together… it’s keeps me sane :nuts:

Hello people.

THIS IS NOT AN OFFICIAL STATEMENT BY THE TECHNICAL COMMITTEE. IT IS PURELY MY OWN, PRIVATE OPINION.

It is worth looking in on the ‘Footy in 6" of water’ thread. Whether on not it is of technical interest to you, the content of that thread has a huge effect on the future of the Footy class.

Tmark is going to build a radical boat which intrinsically involves aerospace type construction - and cost. It may be many things, but ‘suitable for the cub scout it is not’!

There is, of course, no guarantee of success. There is a long history - sometimes noble, sometimes comical, sometimes merely sad - of ‘wonder boats’ that have sailed slowly backwards into obscurity.

But IF it really succeeds, Tmark’s boat will render every existing Footy as obsolete at the Wrights’ Flyer. It will also lift the cost and complexity of a competitive boat from the equivalent of the resources of a bicycle shop in Dayton, Ohio, to those required for Eurofighter.

You should think long and carefully what should be done if tmark’s boat succeeds. Of the possible options, I favour the open and restricted divisions, although how you define these is far from clear. However, there are others.

To me, it’s simple. If the class turns into a mini-Marblehead, where only kilobuck boats are competitive, I’ll just move on. I haven’t got that much invested in either money or emotion to keep me interested, if the class turns into an endless argument over what is, or isn’t, a “Footy”.

All the best to Tmark, and I hope it goes like stink, but if it does, it’ll go without me. I’ll find another class where someone with moderate building skills and moderate expenditure can have some fun and maybe win a race or two.

–Doug

Doug, that’s direct and rational! Any positive ideas on how the whole thing can be kept in one piece? There are other possible dangers apart from a totally radical and complex boat. What about fittings? Bob keeps on coming up with beautiful designs for fittings. That’s fine - a lot of Footy fittings are very primitive. But then things hot up. Some idiot starts making them out of titanium, miraculum or whatever to save some tenths of a gram. Then the price REALLY skyrockets.

My first contribution to this site was on ‘Chequebook Racing’. Have a look at it. There were some intersting things said (mostly not by me!).

Positive ideas… I don’t think that it would be too difficult to outlaw certain materials would it? IOM disallows certain materials for example.

As far a Bob’s fitting etc. well if a perfect gooseneck cost $50 and maybe a few turnbuckles added up to another $50… and a slick sail arm for $10 (Being very inflated I suspect) and a beautiful carbon fin for $20 (yes you can) then that $250 glass Footy hull would still go on the water for less than the price of a race ready ‘Victoria’, I know, I built one. I just don’t see the potential for the Footy to get much more expensive and remain competitive.

Remember that fancy fittings do not a faster yacht make!

There is a place in my life for a nicely adjustable kicking strap, but beyond that I cannot see the need… and this is the word of a competitive skipper… I never put my marblehead on the water without trying to win, and at decent club level I often did.

Another positive thought is that there are few greater pleasures than beating a carbon boat with a nicely trimmed woody!

Graham

I have not been into RC sailing for very long. Over the past few months that I have been involved, I have seen some fairly crude setups on some of the Footys made. I am sure they work for those that are using their boats. I thought that I could offer some stronger more efficient fittings that might not break out in the middle of the pond or in the heat of a race. But, if there is no interest, I won’t bother. I will just put them on my boats.
Bob

Hi Bob… if I caused you to think that way then I appologise. My intention was to say that we need not fear the Footy becoming too expensive because a few even quite expensive fittings would not add up to be so much on a footy. Plus a simple boat will most likely still be competitive for those who simply cannot afford the extras.

That is definitely not to say that quality fittings from your workshop will not be desirable. Quite the opposite, I think there is a market both for the racing style Footys and the semi scale Footys we both know and love.

As I have encouraged you before, I continue to do so.

Graham

Bob. I agree with Graham. The danger is not you but some starry eyed (no pun intended) maniac with a piece of titanium

Now that the immediate furore over boats that look like the Starship Enterprise, are 200 feet long, etc. has largely died away, it’s time to go basck to looking at what we want a Footy to be and why.

To me as a reasonably serious minded designer Footys are things that I can design and either build myself or persude a mug to build at little financial or other risk. This means that in principle I can try out many more or less wild ideas that would otherwise never see the light of day. I am not afraid of advanced technologies where they will help the boat go faster, but I do not want to see costs escalate too much, since this would cut the market for new designs (by the way, as a matter of policy, all my designs are available free of charge).

Since I have spent a very high proportion of my life doodling monohull racing yachts, the class would loose a great deal of interest for me if the dominant type were to be a multihull.

For others a Footy is something much simpler. It is a little boat that can be put together very simply and quickly from very simple materials and sailed for the pure hell of it. It has a cheeky sheerline, a rather antique looking bowsprit and could generally be described as cute.

For others again, the very open nature of the Footy rule is an invitation to unbridled ingenuity: the game is purely and simply to stuff the fastest possible boat into the box, no holds barred. The people in the ‘cute boat’ brigade will tend to dismiss these people as rule cheaters while the ‘monohull development on the cheap’ mob will sniff at them. It could, however, be argued that these people are the only ones who actually embody the spirit of the rule - a vehicle for the exercise of ingenuity.

This is most definitely not an official request or statement but I as one of the people entrusted with administering and interpreting the rule would very much welcome feedback from owners (and prospective owners) of Footys on their vision of what the Footy of five years time should be like and which way in general rule interpretations should go in cases of genuine doubt - toward progress or toward conservatism.

As you are probably aware from my various maunderings ,one of the great tragedies in yachting (full size or medl) was in my view the fate of the late and largely unlamented International Offshore Rule (IOR). This started life as an excellent concept but over time degenerated under pessure from a small band of super-enthusiastic owners first into producing boats that nobody but the super-enthusiastic owners wanted to sail and ultimately into producing ones that not even they wanted. The dream of a rule under which virtually all offshore boats in the world from grand prix hotshots to family cruiser racers could race on level terms died.

I am determined that this should not happen to the Footy class. Where do you, the ‘customers’ want things to go?

OK Angus, I’ll chime in (now ain’t dat unsual:) ).
I am no boat designer like you; just have a basic understanding of the principals. I consider myself an artist at the very least. When I saw these boats earlier this year, I was looking for something to occupy my time that did not take up a lot of tools and expensive materials. I agree that one of the beauties of this class is the ability to build without a care of how much it will cost. Ninety percent of any hobby is the building and creating, to me.
I have always been a monohull person too, and would agree that I would lose some interest if multi hulls dominated this class. But that is just a personal opinion and I can’t fault those that are so very interested in them. But it is very obvious that those that want to change the box rules are looking to build just that.
I have no problem with the box rule as it exists, it gives a lot of lattitude to experiment with and so much that hasn’t even been touched. We could make the box shallower or some other limiting device, but I doubt that the majority would want it. Can’t stop people from fitting larger boats in the box and no reason that you should. Those people will only find themselves limited by other parameters anyway.
What do I see in the Footy class five years from now? Well, one thing we definetly need is people like you who have design knowledge and that are more than willing to share it. After all, none of us would be here if it had not been for Brett’s passion and his willingness to share too. The immature attitude of “well my secret boat is gonna whip your butt” doesn’t sit well with me. This isn’t the America Cup after all! I imagine at some point that we will probably see a second class spring up for those that want to build multihulls with a possible widening of the box rule. Certainly no reason to pit monohulls against multis. I think as of right now, the class is heading in a lot of right directions and little or no changes need to be made. I think the main goal with this class, is that we should all have fun with it and bring others here to do the same.
Bob

I think by now everyone probably knows my feelings…and Bob did a good job articulating many of them for me!

I’d like to emphasize his point about sharing. When you build a Footy that works, please post pics, plans, doodles…whatever you have to help others succeed in this class. Brett set the standard for sharing right from the start, and I believe it’s been key to Footy success so far, and will be key to Footy success in the future.

Bill H

OK people. Not a lot of feedback on that but a lot of views - so it seems most likely that most of you agree with Bob and Bill - let it go where it will but take a very old-fashioned look at anything that seems silly.

For the next question I have to declare an interest. As of today I am verging on becoming a commercial producer of Footys. I’m not taking any money from it but it may not stay that way. At any rate I have a moral interest in seeing that the guy who is setting up to vac form Dingos and produce a Red Fox kit does it properly.

So you have been duly warned. The question that I was going to ask before his development was ‘What is the position of kits and pre-made parts?’ All of us buy in some bits: nobody goes out to the shed and builds a receiver or a servo. At the moment nobody buys a ready to sail boat, because there is no such thing. But as kits take off, is there any point in adopting some sort of de facto standard between manufacturers?

As a designer and sailer, I can see big advantages if I and my clients can swap a Richardson fin for a scalesailing one in the same hull because the top ends are the same. By the same token, I have I programme (and a program) to investigate bulb properties and generate CNC driver files to make the moulds. The moulds or bulbs could be made available to the world at large, but it would be much easier if everyone used the same type of joint between fin and bulb.

Another areas for standardisation is mast tubes/pivots. It should be posible to agree a standard mast tube diameter so that anyone’s rig will fit anyone else’s hull, at least on that basis.

Before everyone else in the industry rushes off into the corner to try and preserve their own little bit, may I have my final say? At the moment nobody has the faintest idea what is the best Footy. I have some numbers, Brett has a lot of empirical experience. Graham has either native talent or the luck of the Gods behind him (no don’t go and sulk, you Yorkshire git - I suspect it’s the former). Bill has a different set of empirical views. Barrett Sparkman’s Bearfoot is different again…

Design will be driven into the correct corner (and there may well be three ‘correct’ corners - US,. Australasian and European) faster and more reliably if it is easier for owners to experiment by mixing and matching. If they mix and match right, they win prizes and the designers of the components learn faster than they could afford to do on their own.

I’m not saying that such standards should be part of the rule - simply that it would be a good idea if anyone in the business (or thnking of going into it) got round a virtual table and agreed some numbers for compatibility.

What say you all?

So long as you’re talking about an agreement among manufacturers rather than an official Footy rule, I say do whatever you want, and can get others to agree to. I’m not sure you’ll find many wanting to agree on such matters, but I’m not going into Footys on a commercial basis, so don’t particularly care.

Mike Biggs

Mike, you are as ever right. However, it would be helpful if anyone actually out there were to publicise standards that they actually use. If the world actually uses 5.5 mm and the ‘industry’ standardises on 5.625, that’s seriously counter-productive.