I thought it better to start a thread regarding FOOTY performance so that the BLUE-SKY II thread was not swamped by performance thoughts.
brilliant Ian! this should be an interesting and informative thread… [ it think i will save my views for the morning, when my words are more likely to make sense…:rolleyes:]
I would agree as others have suggested that the FOOTY is not a planing craft.
Some beginning model yacht designers make the mistake of designing their hulls in the style of dinghys whereas IMHO they should be thought of as “keelboats.”
Because we do not have moveable ballast in the form of a crew we are forced to use a fixed fin and bulb which makes our hulls (especially FOOTYS) heavy for their length.
That is the nature of model yachts as we are currently sailing them. (yes I know about the exceptions):magnify:
I will predict that FOOTYS will evolve to have an average displacement of 500 grams.
The hull shapes that will do well will not be extreme in any way but simple low drag fuller shapes.
Rigs will be simple, either una or swing and of moderate height around 450mm maximum.
My contension stated elsewhere is that all radio yachts in what ever class you sail have the same potential top speed based on their LWL.
Races are not won but are lost, measured in boat lengths at a time.
So it is with the FOOTY class.:cyclops:
The winner of any race or regatta will be the skipper who has the skill to sail his craft to it`s full potential.
That means that he has the reliability to finish every race, the knowledge and experience to tune his sails for the conditions and the helmsmanship to keep his yacht moving at the best speed on every leg of the course.
Being able to pick the shifts and predict the tactics of his compeditors is a skill that will be of assistance.:devil3:
To sum up:
All the best boats will be very similar in performance.
It will be skipper skill that determines the winner (as in any other class )
This oracle has spoken…:diablo:
What do you say to those people who keep thinking that winning heats is nothing but outright speed, or drag racing? They keep the sail in tight on any point but directly downwind, and get mad when you warm them about coming to far down to leeward… 
Hi Tomo…tricky question.
I think reminding them that the leeward boat has right of way is important. Racing skippers need to learn at least the basic rules of sailing…we have that obligation if we want to play together. Since the entire set of racing rules can be overwhelming, many clubs have had better success with a list of 10 or 12 basic rules. When I see lots of violations of a rule during club days, I call a brief meeting between heats to talk about the rule as a reminder to all skippers.
In our club, I also try (as Commodore) to discourage temper tantrums…they reduce the fun factor for everyone. While we all get frustrated occasionally, and can be understanding of that in others, skippers who are constantly abusive are not welcome at our club.
The tendency to think all points of sail are either a beat or a run is something I’ve noticed in many beginning sailors…they haven’t yet developed the feel for the wind needed to maximize the sail position at more subtle angles to the wind. I coach people on this, usually once they notice that someone elses boat always seems a little faster than theirs on a given leg of the course. Until they see that, they may not be receptive to a suggestion.
Bill H
Hi Tomo…tricky question.
I think reminding them that the leeward boat has right of way is important. Racing skippers need to learn at least the basic rules of sailing…we have that obligation if we want to play together. Since the entire set of racing rules can be overwhelming, many clubs have had better success with a list of 10 or 12 basic rules. When I see lots of violations of a rule during club days, I call a brief meeting between heats to talk about the rule as a reminder to all skippers.
In our club, I also try (as Commodore) to discourage temper tantrums…they reduce the fun factor for everyone. While we all get frustrated occasionally, and can be understanding of that in others, skippers who are constantly abusive are not welcome at our club.
The tendency to think all points of sail are either a beat or a run is something I’ve noticed in many beginning sailors…they haven’t yet developed the feel for the wind needed to maximize the sail position at more subtle angles to the wind. I coach people on this, usually once they notice that someone elses boat always seems a little faster than theirs on a given leg of the course. Until they see that, they may not be receptive to a suggestion.
Bill H
Oops…it just occured to me that we are hijacking Ian’s thread that he created so that we wouldn’t hijack Trevor’s thread…sorry
Bill,
It’s the same thing I see about everywhere.
Newer people think yacht racing is all about “going fast” so they just go straight to the next mark, and if you’re in the way, it 's your fault, no matter what, because they were ( basically just minding their own business) and give you that “what? I did something wrong?” look. Trying to inform them about rules or right-of-way stuff just wastes your breath. “why didn’t you hail first?” is the usual excuse.
Just to be horribly circular about this then … what constitutes the best boat ??? :devil3:
As for tactics … hell, covering the strongest skipper requires the least thought and ensures the most consistent results … boring though. :mischievo
Trevor-
T answer your question, I think you’d better define what “best boat” means.
To me, the best boat can tow a pint with it to keep it at the best temperature. 
Either that, or knowing that it will go the whole day without mechanical problems, or getting water inside when it’s choppy.
Seriously… do you want speed, or maneuverability, deck size, wind capacity ( to sail in any kind of pressure) or what? You can only go after one at a time. Maybe even prioritize things.
Yeah yeah … twas snarky too … by these now gelling standards the committee boat (provided its generator is powered) just may be the best boat :zbeer:
Footies, tmark. Footies…
What makes the “BEST BOAT”?
Here is an article I wrote for our Wellington Club newsletter which goes some way towards explaining my idea of which is the best boat.
I will post later some thoughts on what would constitute the best FOOTY in my opinion.
Just to be horribly circular about this then … what constitutes the best boat ??? :devil3:
My article says basically that it is the helmsman that wins races not the boat.
That is only true if the yacht you are sailing is “up to speed.”:pirate:
Being “up to speed” is a result firstly of the boat design making it a “Best Boat” and secondly of the practice I wrote of.
The “Best Boats” in any FOOTY fleet will be those with reliability, speed and the ability to accelerate out of a tack with out losing way.
Keeping the boat moving is in my opinion the most important factor in winning races either solo runs or fleet events.
If your FOOTY stalls or is reluctant to tack, will not track straight and is out of balance with excessive weather or lee helm it will never be a “BB”
Down wind control is another factor we have not spoken much of as yet.
Sailing downwind without broaching is a very important apect to the winning of races.
Does that relate to skill or boat design? Perhaps both!
The “BB” will have sufficent rudder to control broaching without being so large as to induce extra drag. How big is that?
If your sails are not optimized for your sailing conditions yours will never be a “BB.”
Do you have the right amount of crossover between the two rigs?
Is the sail control set correctly?
Is your boat watertight in rough water?
Will it break when you push it hard?
Is it a joy to sail?
These are some of the factors that will go to making a “BEST BOAT” in any fleet in any part of the world.
See you on the water.:smgreen:
Notice Ian only use the word SPEED by itself in the previous comment only ONCE!
Speed alone does not make your boat win. Especially if all the other things (including you) don’t have harmonious perfection too.
Good on you, mate. :zbeer:
OK…I will start.
Hull must be balanced…ie doesn’t round up and do all sorts of strange things on heeling.More important in Footys than any other class.
Subject in itself so I won’t go on to details here.
Low wave making drag…easy transition from low to high speed . gentle drag curves with no visible hump.
Must get to speed quickly…so most likely a bit lighter than 500g…must have as higher ballast ratio as possible.
Rig…must be of automatic type.Ie depowers itself with no input from the sailor.
Rigs seen on most boats seem far from ideal at this stage.I belive this area is one of the most important
Study the rigs of modern skiffs/windsurfers the clues are out there!
Crossover between the 2 rig sizes is vital.
Footys will evolve in 2 directions most likely.
1/ Internet racer,possibly lighter displ with really light scantling’s designed for one condition only.No regard for other conditions and being hit by other boats etc.
2/ Reggatta racer, full on race boat designed for all wind strengths,wont break and will carry on racing in any weather for as long as needed.
can take the knocks etc associated with competitive fleet racing in above mentioned conditions.
Next please??
Ok, I’ll make a prediction too. :graduate:
Light air Footy - hull balanced for light winds1-3 mph, low ballast, low freeboard, and light overall weight. Or very high rig with some more freeboard.
High seas Footy - similar to Brett’s regatta racer but with downwind performance additions, forward bouyancy or some other modification.
If skippers in other classes bring a quiver of sails to an event, I see no reason why a skipper wouldn’t pick the best boat for the forecast conditions. It will make for increased luggage space required. 
Well, gotta go. Sailing today and I hope to see a few Footys on the lake.
OK, I’ll let myself get drawn – a bit!
The first thing that appears to me is that the VERY wide boats are PROBABLY non-starters. The reason why I emphasise the ‘probably’ is totally central to everything that follows. Scaling of things like skin friction, static stability and waves is pretty well understood and works in just the same way on a Footy as on an 80-footer. However, ‘form drag’ – broadly the drag caused by making water go round corners is much less clear cut. This is the ‘mystery’ area of Footy performance. If there is any magic, it is in the area of form drag. This is not to say that, apart from considerations of form drag, a good Footy design is just an elastic tape-measure job. Everything is scaling at a different rate: if it wasn’t, the rather chubby cheeky boat that represents the current ‘standard’ Footy would sail incredibly badly.
So to the very wide boat: the entire history of yacht design suggests that beam is of use as a platform for moveable ballast (usually people) or as a means of circumventing a rating rule. Boats using moveable ballast tend to minimise hull beam anywhere close to the water (because this minimises drag) and have tremendous flair (ultimate expression trapezes). But a Footy does not have moveable ballast. Some may argue that the benefit in increased horsepower from increased beam is in any case worth the increased drag. I think that all precedent is against this PROVIDED WE MAKE CERTAIN ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT FORM DRAG. The possible crying exception to this is the Balmain Bug – but I suspect that the reason behind their design is not quite what meets the eye. What did they weigh?
So – Fatties out on grounds of drag. But there is another reason for not going fat. So far a few Footys at a time have met for some ‘fun’ racing. If this discussion is not totally academic, the likely direction is toward whing-ding highly tactical racing on small, crowded courses. This means boats that will sail themselves doubly so for those with failing eye-sight. A Footy should balance to vane-sailing standards – and this is very difficult to achieve with a wide boat.
So, yes, I think less beam, less weight. Just how much less is the big question.
I guess Niels Bantams fall into the wide beam type.I would like to hear Niels comments on beam.
From the pictures ive seen of them sailing and Niels comments in the past…wide beam has not helped with nose diving.
perhaps less wavemaking drag though…
was that somewhat aimed at me angus? lol… you make a good point about drag, and i totally agree with you, hence my new design “Stiletto”… but.
in my mind, while you are very correct that one of the major benifits of a “wide” boat comes from being able to meat on the rail - or water, canting ballast, etc. - and that when this is able to happen, the wide boat really comes into its own, esspecially in a box rule where length is restricted. your point is a good one in the case that as we are not allowed moveable ballast on footys, hence perhaps the loss of the “fat boat’s” edge, if you will. and yet. what tips over more easily? a pencil, or a dock? with width does come to an extent stability - please note i say to an extent, i know that this is not nesicarily the end all be all of the principle, but for what i am trying to say, this is all that is needed. - with greater inherant stability comes greater sail-carrying power, with less ballast, with less ballast - less weight. less weight and more power=faster. however, especially on a small boat the stability gained will not be as much as one would like, but there is still a benifit of having wider boat… about five years ago there was a boat in production here in the states called a Quest 30. i am aware of this instance because my family was involved in this boat, but anyhow, i degress. it was rather obviously 30 feet long, and 11.5 feet wide. it was the first of the “sport boats” but that is not the point. the boat was horrid to sail up wind, the upwind shape was all wrong, but when the boat heeled over on a reach its wetted surface was cut in about half, and the waterline length increased. in short the boat was like a bat outta hell of the wind… now, some time ago brett made a very good point about footys not reaching a lot, to paraphrase his words “building a boat “wide for the reach” is of les if no importance as footys spend very little time reaching.” the i true if for an internet windward-leward format of racing, but when fleets start building up, and triangles are used, or if ever someone follows up on angus’s idea of a “long-distance” footy race, or, [this is my new idea] team racing footys, reaching will become more important. to add to this i go back to my statement about the waterline length of the Quest 30 getting longer as it heeled over. lets just assume that a 12" boat that is 6" wide heels over on its ear, and the new waterline draws a line from the bow, to the aft corner. the water now sees a boat that is longer than it really is… now, in all honesty the amount of length gained is not going to be massive, but the point is that you are getting a boat that the water thinks is longer on its normal sailing lines that the rule thinks it is… that is the real rule, the water. that is the rule we are trying to find loopholes in… anyhow, before you rule “wide” boats out all together, just some thoughts!
:rolleyes:
All very interesting…
I can’t help wondering, though, if we’re making too much of the displacement issue. Ballast ratio, a problem for boats under 500 grams, could certainly improve with a heavier boat…and I’ve seen 9 pound IOMs beat 6 pound USOMs in decent wind. Even in light air I wonder if the USOMs would have as much advantage if the IOMs could put on 1000 sq. inches of sail.
Everyone has pointed out the acceleration advantage of the light boat, but let’s not forget that the heavier boat has a deceleration advantage that helps make up for its slower start…it keeps gliding when the light boat stops.
It seems to me that a lot of the push to lower displacement comes from classes where sail area is restricted. Since we don’t have that issue, I’m not sure that the common wisdom completely applies.
Then again, I’m not sure that it doesn’t…
Bill