Foiler Design III

Will make it easier for the moderators to kill this thread if they wish, but the obvious question:

“How many more threads about foilers are we going to see?” Just courious.

The reason I ask, is that we currently have …

1)Foiler Archives
2)Foiler Design
3)Foiler Design II

… all just in this portion of the forum. I’m not counting how many other topics the suggestion for foils was inserted.

A “suggestion” so a couple of months from now we aren’t at Foiler Design XXVI …

For questions regarding foilers, and for repeats of previously posted foiler information, I would suggest (recommend) that any questions be directed directly to Microsail at their email address of

<center>Foiler Questions</center>

and in this way

  1. there will be fewer threads about the same topic,
  2. this will mean there will be less repetitive topics with same/similar information, and
  3. those truly interested can still get their information anytime and directly from the guru, and
  4. there will be less wear and tear on typing fingers since only the questions that are posted directly to that email address need to be answered.

Just an idea/thought - to keep from adding yet many, many more <s>topcics</s> <font color=“green”>topics</font id=“green”> to the forum - all of which will then need to be cross-linked, and categorized.

<font color=“green”>Edit: spelling</font id=“green”>

Actualy, the Foiler Design locked topic is the ONLY post on this forum that gives the complete and specific details necessary to understand the design of a foiler to the point you could actually build one using the provided information.

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

Hmmm - guess I must have missed some of those “complete” details. Didn’t see any dimensions or drawings either, but to be honest, I didn’t look that close.

Thank you for pointing out that this was the complete details for the concept of building your own. Based on your suggestion, I will go take another look.

and what do you meen by foiler III?
i dont come here often because i dont understand multihull , and dont want to say something that must be wrong.
but i hear that people are self promtoing themselves?
what about the rules?
i thinks i will stay out of mutilthull for now
the only person making sense is dick lemke
long live the cup

<font color=“red”>Edited by Moderator DanSherman Because of

Spamming</font id=“red”>

i wont jump on the-- high technolgy/Racing
good one doug
this was for ben
long live the cup

Multihull racing is heaps of fun. The boats do take some getting use to to sail, but after you master them there’s know going back to monohull sailing. The speed that a multihull can generate is awesome.

I read a story written by a guy in the UK who was saying at the club he sailed at, they had monohulls and multihulls. The multi’s were having there race and some of the monohull skippers had there boats reaching down the reaching leg of the course. When the multihull fleet rounded the windward mark and set of on the reach, he was amazed at the time it took for the multihull’s to catch and blow past the IOM’s and Marbleheads that were reaching as well. He was saying that the multi’s had finished the leg before the mono’s were half way down it.

I urge you that if you ever get the chance to have a go at one, take it up, you won’t be sorry you did.

Don’t be concerned amount not having foils etc, we don’t use them over in Australia and to the best of my knowledge the French( with more experience than anybody with r/c multi’s) don’t use them either.


Foils are not in widespread use in rc models yet because of a lack of experience and understanding of what they can do. The gains in stability alone with the right type of foiler make it worthwhile-then there is the speed increase as well.
Most people have no experience whatsoever with the application of a fully submerged foil system to an rc multihull so like humans everywhere they knock what they don’t understand. It’s sort of like the days before the Wright Brothers flew-most didn’t believe it was possible.
RC hydrofoils using the Bradfield altitude control system(actually invented by Phillip Hansford) can revolutionize rc multihull sailing. And those blind to the potential now will be great champions of the concept later!

And while I’m on the subject let me point out a great failing of most current advocates of multihulls: they don’t talk about capsize!!! That is a fact of sailing an F48 or mini40 or multi ONE yet those who promote them(other than me) never talk abbout the greatest fact of a small multihull: YOU will pitchpole or capsize. Some even sell scaled down plans of F48’s or mini40’s for unsuspecting buyers in the multiONE class. Listen: the F48 size multi is extremely difficult to learn to sail in medium and heavy air; scaling it down to one meter just blows up the problem!
When have you heard any of the multi promoters tell you about what happens when they capsize? Does the boat turn turtle? Does the radio gear get ruined? How many rigs do you need and how do you know when to use the next sized rig? When you capsize you know have too big a rig up?(duh)
This all happened years ago when there were a bunch of enthusiastic multi sailors that also didn’t like to talk about the rc multihulls dirty little secret: CAPSIZE/PITCHPOLE. And that led to a lot of unsuspecting builders finding out ON THEIR OWN how hard it is to sail these boats AND that nobody had told them how to prepare their boat for the INEVITABLE CAPSIZE OR PITCHPOLE!!! How to properly seal the mast; the options in preventing turtling ect. You’ll notice that ,other than me, nobody wants to talk about this!!
My positon is that multihull sailing is the most fun you can have at highspeed in rc sailing on the water BUT you must have a realistic appraisal of the problems to enjoy the experience-and you DON"T GET IT from the current crop of multi promoters which is too bad.
Foils offer the best solution to the quirky handling of small multi’s that I’ve ever run across in 40 years of sailing them. I myself have only known what foils can do for three years-and they can change the experience from a frustrating one to one that you consistently enjoy.
Thats why I’m preenting the foiler information-so that more people can go ahead on their own without having to buy a ready made foiler and experience the difference-and the difference is huge!
And next time you consider a multihull ask the person you’ll get it from about the capsize chracteristics, including such things as : is the mast sealed ect And how many rigs do you need to prevent being overpowered? And how do you know when to change down without capsizing?
You know, the stuff they don’t talk about…

edt: add info/sp
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

At the risk of disagreement and a personal attack, I have to take exception to much of what Doug has written…

  1. Once again Doug makes claims based on HIS opinion, thus, to start off the topic, perhaps it should really be worded “IN MY OPINION” !

  2. Foils and foil concepts have been around a lot longer than the last 4 years of Doug’s promotions - and as noted by Peter Birch, r/c multihull sailing (in France) has been active since the early 1990’s - and still there is a lack of foil use in major European events. Why? Because the gains don’t seem to warrant the extra tinkering. If (big IF) foils are so well perceived, isn’t it interesting to wonder how come NO else uses them, and by Doug’s own count, only 4 (four) of the larger F3 multihulls have been sold in the U.S.?

  3. Multihulls tip over. To the front and to the side. They can even tip over backwards in specific instances and in the right conditions. Worried about going turtle - simple - shape a piece of foam for the top of the mast. If the mast tip is laying on the water surface, then the electronics will be at least half the total beam off the surface of the water. It doesn’t take much foam, and it can have aerodynamic shape if so desired. Remember, that these boats weigh 1/2 of what a similar sized monohull weighs. NO LEAD. Want additional reassurance, add lead to the keel. Yes performance will be less than one that is “unleaded” - but that also can address the concerns.

  1. I don’t ever recall saying a multihull WOULDN’T capsize as you infer. In fact, YOU are the only person who insists foils will prevent <u>ALL</u> capsizes, if memory serves me correct.

Also I don’t know of anyone connected with multihulls that would make such a foolish statement. What you have in your post better have some names attached, or an edit removing it. For someone to point out “blatant lies” in past posts by others (myself included) I offer this:
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>That is a fact of sailing an F48 or mini40 or multi ONE yet <font color=“red”>those who promote them</font id=“red”>(other than me) never talk abbout the greatest fact of a small multihull: YOU will pitchpole or capsize.<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”> Either put up the names of people (other than you) to whom you are referencing - or remove this erroneous post! FACTS PLEASE - not conjecture on your part - would be appreciated.

  1. Regarding the scale-down to MultiONE size, if you spent time corresponding with Jack Ronda, the most recent builder of a MultiONE, I am sure he would confirm that a lot of correspondence went back and forth between us before <u>HE</u> elected to go with the MultiONE! Our correspondence (including comments from the original Mini40 designer that was passed on to him) regarding the issues of scaling down a bigger design were presented to Jack. Jack was well informed - it was HIS decision as a buyer/builder to build to a one meter size.

  2. I am truly amazed at your interest in in these issues. Perhaps some day we will see a MultiONE and/or an F-48 X3 on the water to demonstrate your claims and opinions. In the meantime, your “OPINIONS” have been well voiced through out this forum for the past 3-4 years, and I cannot be the only person who has stopped holding our breath just waiting for someone else to decide foils are the “only” answer.

  3. For some strange reason, you keep forgetting (or ignoring) a fact ! That “fact” is that a majority of r/c regattas held in the U.S. are held in light air (summer) conditions. Non-Foiling conditions if you will. This means that until there is a practical way to remove foils and shift the rig and sail forward or back for foil/non-foil use, few if any will probably move toward foils. Now - add in the need to sail a triangular course - not just reaching or upwind, and that too, is a factor why many are not interested. Finally - as in my personal case - summer weeds where we sail up here also has an impact. All added together - plus a boat that doesn’t fit current U.S. Classes are all reasons WHY foils (and the F3) aren’t and won’t be promoted by me.

It would be interesting, however, to hear opinions from the four (4) who own the F3 as to their impressions.

Let’s see - there is
Chris Traiser from Minneapolis
Rich Matt from Chicago
Bill Hojnacki from Hawaii
and your fourth owner unknown to me.

Since two of the owners are known to frequent this forum, a truthful opinion of the F-3 would be most enlightening - especially from an “owner’s perspective” rather than from someone interested in selling the boats. I have already posted photos of Chris’ boat with weeds that “strangled” it’s performance until we got to the middle of the lake. It was impossible to sail near shore.

I guess until the foils are accepted and gain popularity in the r/c multihull fraternity, I reserve the right to NOT promote them - but would honestly discuss and point out “their” shortcomings - even if you won’t. But on the other hand, to even suggest that we don’t discuss or talk about our “dirty little secret” - is absolutely false and (once again) an outright lie - especially since you aren’t privy to any of my email responses to interested parties!

No one associated with “normal” rc multihulls has posted anythng regarding the capsize chracteristics of any small multihull. No discussion has ever been presented that informs prospective multihull buyers that they MUST have multiple rigs(or a reefing system),how to protect radio gear in the event of capsize, how to seal the mast, how to prevent turtling , and the INEVITABILITY of capsize/pitchpole.
Foilers can be built NOW that can retract foils and when on or off foils such a boat will be extremely competitive and will have FAR LESS chance of capsizing or pitchpoling than a conventional multihull.
Weeds are a prblem with ANY high performance boat with a vertical fin.
Your references to lying are offensive and constitue a personal attack; they are beneath contempt.
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

<font color=“red”>Enough!

topic locked by mod!
No personal attack(s)…and I could consider this as a personal attack to all builder/maker of multis

Wis</font id=“red”>

if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it!