DF comes down to skipper ability rather than the ‘arms race’ that Hew sites so well. IMHO, that makes it both very accessible and an excellent learning vehicle for us noobies. We sail against experienced skippers, like for like and learn a lot.
And if an ABS boat beats a carbon dream … as some did in our Nats last year ?? Frowned upon, why??
My point is, let’s not put Dragon Force down because it isn’t a carbon dream. It isn’t, so let’s accept it for what it is and see the fleets grow.
Alan - just a very fine point of correction … 1. There is no such class as an “open RG65” - it is strictly an RG65 Class that is developmental with a few rules to keep sizes close. (Length, sail area, mast height and a few others)
It just so “happens” the DF is of the same length and has a few other measurements that make it an RG65 - However, it is being promoted as a “One Design” class with very limited options for changes out-of-the-box.
The problem (as I see it) is the easy way a new sailor to the r/c world could easily confuse a DF as being competitive for the (approximate) purchase price of around $175 (US) I would prefer they sell it as a “One Design Dragon Force” boat that is 65cm in length. No confusion, no mis-representations, no “fine/small” print. And in the end, absolutely no expectations a stock boat will be an RG65 Class “killer”.
I like the boat as an entry level r/c sailboat, with (hopefully) a manufacturer that will continue to support the class with parts/accessories - class legal - once the saturation of new sales is reached, and sales (in numbers) taper off. I would like to see the three big promoters of the class, sit down and start making needed rules changes (with timely postings) based on legitimate questions and comments being voiced, (as by Haegar regarding a “possible” under sized jib noted earlier in the thread) as an example. Once the DF class is established, and owners have the opportunity to sail in a combined RG65 and Dragon Force class event, it will be up to the individual owner to decide what to do and how well he can sail against other RG65’s and if he wants to spend more money to move out of the DF one design class/fleet.
What I hope “doesn’t” happen, is for a very good r/c sailor with a one design DF showing up at a local club and winning the RG65 Class and giving the impression a stock boat can best the other more costly boats sailed by owners with lesser sailing abilities. Kind of like “cherry picking” and giving false hopes. Sell the boat that it is - not that what it can someday be …maybe!
Good quote to keep in mind for those promoting the DF one design class … “It is ----what it isn’t!”
:what: …yeah right Dick (you did good job of totally confusing me)
I understand the DF is basically a replica of the ICE … therefore both are RG-65 class boats ?
Amended quote …“if it looks like duck, walks like a duck & talks like a duck …it’s a duck!” right?
The only difference is that the DF is a massed produced which lends itself to “one design” with standardised equipment, RG-65 class racing.
Then if the DF skipper would like to step out of the “one design” fleet and move into the “open design” fleet with improved performance using paneled sails etc etc… they can do so, right ?
Finally if a “skipper” is good enough to win races with a “open design” DF it will be testimony of not only the capability of the modified boat but also the ability & skill of the skippers…no smoke and mirrors there !
The results of the English 2013 Nationals prove this:
I doubt very much that a “one design” standard DF would ever be competitive among an “open design” RG-65 fleet however, 10 from 22 in the English RG-65 Nats were DF boats that were not doubt modified to what I call … Open design.
Nope. Apart from some upgraded sails (all single paneled as per one design rules) all the DF65s present, including the one sailed to 5th place overall were using original fins, ballast, rigs and servos. One (which made it into the A fleet for one race) was sailing exactly as it came out of the box - including the dragon sails - as it had been bought and rigged at the lakeside the day before.
No, the one design rules allow the owner to make or buy new sails to the same dimensions as the manufacturers sails. These have to be single panel and there are some other restrictions on reinforcement etc. I have made my own but there are currently at least three suppliers in the UK making A B & C sails.
I see that DF’s were 5th & 7th in the USA nationals at the weekend. Having sailed a couple now & raced against many with an Rg65 myself, it’s about time some accept these boats are far more competitive then their price would suggest.
I agree. But I would think skipper skill is still what matters most.
I would like two guys from the top ten to try them one-on-one agains their own boats. I mean, let one of them race his own boat, and the other race a DF65. Then switch and race again.
Then hear their comments.
For the test to be conclusive, you would have to perform those match races under varying weather conditions. From what I have heard, the DF isn’t that competive in light breezes, but as the wind picks up it becomes more so.
The US Champs were sailed in light winds and some chop. The top DF skipper, Brig North, can hold his own with the other RG skippers that finished above him in other classes, like IOMs. Given some top of rig conditions I bet he would have been in the top three, or very close.
No one that I know is hoping to compete with RG65’s at the top level, but want to sail a regatta against other DF one design boats. If we are competitive with them in a few races, fine, but it’s not the objective!
We did some Dragon force racing yesterday at one of our local Ponds and finally got a chance to test Eric Rosenbaum 's Dragon Force Swing Rig Mod! This test was against other DFs and Rich Hoffman 's Yankee Clipper RG65. See the video exclusively at: http://www.rg65usa.org/video.html
It has been a while since anyone posted in this topic & I wonder what peoples feeling are a few years on from the boats release? In the beginning there were many saying it wasn’t going to be any good, or that people would think they were buying a top RG65 & would be disappointed, but I think that total sales of over 12000 have put any doubts to rest. I love racing this boat, I own rg65’s, IOM’s, marbleheads & an R10R, but this little plastic boat puts a much bigger smile on my face than any of the other classes.
At the Uk national championships last year there were former world, European & national champions from other classes racing this little boat, there must be a reason they choose to race it. My own club has been transformed with over 30 members now owning one & the number seems to increase every week. We have now got to the stage where we have to hold our club regattas over 2 days to ensure everyone gets a reasonable amount of races in. As hoped, new members are starting to progress into to other classes now & our IOM fleet has also tripled in size. Of course the boat is not without issues, in reasonable wind an decent RG65 will beat it (with equal skipper abilities), but not by as much as many thought, & in light airs RG65’s eat it, but then I would be very upset if my expensive Argon didnt have the legs on the plastic Dragon.
I was originally a skeptic of the boat. Having bought one, and also a few keels and bulbs for my other RG65’s - I must admit they did hit a sweet spot for quality versus cost. I still am GREATLY disappointed of the one design rules approach and the silly way the three (Gang of Three) came up with the rules. While they pride themselves on a pure one design “concept”, they seem to be unable to decide what is and what isn’t allowed to be modified or changed----and why. There is still a lot of questions being asked after this amount of time, and one can only speculate how the answer will decided. The starting comment is always to keep everything from the factory that would be “performance enhancing”, but then the strange decisions that come forth …(all couched in terms of keeping the cost down). So what do we have … one is allowed to replace the transmitter and receiver - (performance enhancing) via telemetry and adjustable end points if you buy a different transmitter/receiver package. Ability to purchase custom made sails (and while they insist the single panel sail is not that significant why do so many owners feel they must opt for a sail set made by a recognized sailmaker - performance enhancing perhaps? Prescribing how the running rigging MUST follow rather than allowing the owner to run his sheeting system to his liking including where on the booms the sheets must be attached. The inconsistency of why and how they came up with the rules they did, and having to (almost) beg to be allowed to repair an issue (like rudder linkages, etc. keeping metal mainsheet rings instead of nylon or plastic that won’t fray the mainsheet are some of the more discussed issues. So while I am not critical of the attempt, I am critical in not allowing owners input to these so called 'strict" design rules, and when asking why - being labeled as a “troll” !
Personally I think the rules are pretty good, although not without issues. I thought the sail ruling was logical since the original sails stretched quickly & there was a need for ‘B’ & ‘c’ rigs when racing, which the manufacturer did not produce, therefore the best way forward was to make a set of standard dimensions & let anyone produce sails to those sizes. It was inevitable that sail manufacture’s products would be better than most individuals could make themselves & that many sailors would opt for the sails that seemed to win the most races, disreguarding the fact of who was actually sailing the boat. A guy at our club makes the DF65 sails I use & I have raced with them against some of the top skippers in the uk. I have also swapped boats with them & found they still beat me by the same distance with my own boat, so I am sceptical there is any performance advantage between sails & it is more a case of people following trends.
Swapping out the radio equipment certainly gives you an advantage as the original is not great & most of the sailors I know have done so, including myself. Is that fair? I’m not convinced, but take advantage of the rule & am happy in the knowledge that my boat will always work as it should.
As for the other points, there is room for improvement, however, the problem I see is that if the rules allow too many modifications we start down the slippery slope where classes such as the Victoria & micro magic went, ending up with vastly modified boats & eventually finishing up with the total abortion that is the current IOM rules !!! So maybe the gang of 3 have done the right thing & resisted strongly too many amendments in order to keep it as simple as possible.
Just my personal opinion & view.
It is interesting that we have so few posts here on this particular boat. Since it’s release to the the DF 65 has become the best selling boat of it’s size, dare I say in the world. There are more people and clubs racing these little guys than one would have ever imaged. Granted they are being raced in their own “one design” class but the numbers are worthy of respect. The domestic dealer has been instrumental in helping this class along withit’s bigger brother the DF 95 class.
Up until last 2 months I was totally happy with my fleet/collection of sailboats. I guess I caught the fever and ordered both a DF 65 and DF 95 in the hope of getting some of the ol’ guys that sail at my local lake to spring for something new. They think a Soling 1 meter is the “cats meow” as we old people like to say. The wife is totally convinced I’ve lost my mind, but hay, like a I like to say “so many boats, so little time”. Have to say these are nice boats for the money. I like a boat be a little sturdier than these two boats but from all the reports they are holding up pretty well so far.
They do amazingly well heavy weather conditions which makes them more fun than some of my other boats. Having proper sails for the conditions is always a key. In conclusion I’d say the development team has commercial success on their hands and have helped to bring many new people to this wonderful past time or RC sailing.
I attached a picture of the DF 65 (in white limited normally black) and the DF 95 currently offered in white. Black maybe coming? If you are interested Chuck at Dragon Sailing @ Radiosailing.net can address your questions. Super nice fellow and always willing to help. I am but a mere enthusiast
Yes Boomer they are sturdy enough but if you want to take better care of them with a stand that supports the bulb as well as the hull and have the convenience of carrying the boat “and stand” in one hand you need one(or both) of mine.
They are great for moving the boat from home to the car to the pond and also free standing storage back at home.
Both of them work with or without the sails and rig on the boat !
Have a look at my videos of the “Ultimate Boat Stand” for the DF95 and the DF65.
boomer…maybe the reason there are so few posts is that since there is nothing to modify on the the boat to “hop it up” so to speak. maybe that’s why its so quiet… although it is summer time and most folks are sailing rather than posting…
FWIW the topic has 29000+ views…on only 4 pages of topic. so people are looking…
I think I might add that with the exception of the IOM, there are a lot of builders here, whereas the other forum seems to be more of a buy today type of crowd. Not all of them, but like here - we also have buyers AND builders.
I originally messed up the rigging on my Apsara so I just re-did it all thanks to the DragonForce installation manual lol.
Does anyone know if there’s an official South African supplier of them? I’d love to use some of the fittings but if I’ve got to import, it becomes a hit and miss if the bits actually arrive.
The wife is totally convinced I’ve lost my mind, but hay, like a I like to say “so many boats, so little time”. Have to say these are nice boats for the money. I like a boat be a little sturdier than these two boats but from all the reports they are holding up pretty well so far.