Depron Razor

Hello,

Stumbled across Footy’s about a week ago. My first is proceeding… well…afoot.

I’ll have lots of questions but this forum seems to have lots of answers.

Here are the particulars:

  1. Razor hull and deck from 2mm depron using foam safe CA and hot glue.
  2. I plan to cover the hull and deck with So-Lite film.
  3. Internal structure is a mix of 1/16" ply and balsa.
  4. Fin is 1/32" ply bent over a thin carbon rod to form a cateye section.
  5. Aft hung rudder 1/32" balsa bent over 1/8" aluminum tube.

So much for the prelude. Now the questions:

  1. Is there a preferred fin length? My blank would allow about 7-1/2" extension below the hull. What in the world do you base this figure on?

  2. Is it best to glue the fin in or should it be easily removable?

  3. How do I waterproof the balsa without harming the depron?

  4. Are there advantages to placing the rudder as far back as the rules allow?

  5. I would appreciate any guidance regarding rudder size, shape, thickness and crossection.

  6. Can anyone who has deck mounted servos show me or explain the structure involved?

I’m sure more questions will come to mind but thanks in advance for any help you can provide.

Take care,

Brent

hey dude sory i forgot to get back to u been kinda bisey as you can see got bout boats going now so if ya want to pop over and have a bit of a go your welcome only thing being it would have to be before sat.
not mutch help with the info your after just build it to what looks right was my aprotch and to fit in the box odviosly

[QUOTE=bcarter1234;43219]Hello,

Stumbled across Footy’s about a week ago. My first is proceeding… well…afoot.

I’ll have lots of questions but this forum seems to have lots of answers.

Here are the particulars:

  1. Razor hull and deck from 2mm depron using foam safe CA and hot glue.

Good

  1. I plan to cover the hull and deck with So-Lite film.

John Donnelly in Scotland is experimenting with kayak-type sructures.
Find him on UK Footy Locator map: http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=113677077282091778067.000436ba48564c1eeba70&ll=55.838314,-3.603516&spn=3.924479,7.69043&z=7&om=1&iwloc=00043d40da76e4affe775

  1. Internal structure is a mix of 1/16" ply and balsa.

You shouldn’t need much internal structure. A 2 mm depron monocoque is pretty strong. Use low density, high permeability timber infused with epoxide resin. Make some test samples and see how the resin soaks in. If you need more soak, add a little alcohol (meths, surgical spirit) to the resin. This will make it runnier and delay gelling. Effect on cured strength is purely academic.

  1. Fin is 1/32" ply bent over a thin carbon rod to form a cateye section.

Crazy engineering – strong material on the inside, weak material on the outside: sandwich inside out. I can say this without being accused of being big headed since it was Brett’s idea, but Moonshadow’s fin is a marvel. A hand shaped western red cedar fin (high resin absorption), resin treated as above. It’s incredibly stiff. See below on foil shapes.

  1. Aft hung rudder 1/32" balsa bent over 1/8" aluminium tube.

As above for material but probably use balsa. Set a (2mm ?) carbon rod into a slot in the blade and fir in with epoxide+ microballoon. 1/8” is almost certainly too thick to get within a sensibly shaped blade of suitable size.

So much for the prelude. Now the questions:

  1. Is there a preferred fin length? My blank would allow about 7-1/2" extension below the hull. What in the world do you base this figure on?

If I knew the answer, I’d be rich! The trade offs are less depth, gives less righting moment (=less horsepower), but also (probably) less tendency to hobbyhorse, less wetted surface and less tendency to nosedive on the run. No single answer: has to fit the rest of the design.

  1. Is it best to glue the fin in or should it be easily removable?

Given the difficulty of answering the last question, there is a lot to be said for making the fin removable. Also make the bulb removable from the fin. That way you can re-jig fin geometry with little trouble. This may also be an easier way of correcting hull balance than moving the mast. There is a very small weight penalty, but realistically the 3 or 4 g involved are unlikely to make the difference between your first boat being an unbeatable winner and a total dog.

  1. How do I waterproof the balsa without harming the depron?

Epoxide. But ALWAYS regard the result as a sandwich structure in which much of the real strength is in the epoxide. Yacht varnish is lipstick: epoxide is structural.

  1. Are there advantages to placing the rudder as far back as the rules allow?

Yes, big ones. Almost all Footys with underslung rudders are either pre-box rule hangovers (max length is 12”, period) or diagonal boats (Moonshadow)

  1. I would appreciate any guidance regarding rudder size, shape, thickness and crossection.

The planform is not particularly important. Size depends on the overall characteristics of the design. Broadly speaking, a narrower, more easily controlled boat can get away with a smaller rudder for the same helm effect. Section shape is very important. I suggest a thick NACA section – say 12%. For fins, don’t be lead astray by boats like IOMs where thicknesses as low as 6% are fashionable. Their problems are different. I think that if you go looking under files in USA Footy you will find an NACA section calculator that I put there some while back. If not, look for an NACA section catalogue on the web and go from there.

  1. Can anyone who has deck mounted servos show me or explain the structure involved?

No!

I’ve replied at length to this partly because Brent wants answers, but partly in order to demonstrate that the new plastic/carbon weight –controlled Footys are actually not much harder to build (if at all) than the more traditional ones. There is admittedly a switchover expense: the bin under the bench now contains miscellaneous lengths of carbon rod, not brass. But after that the techniques are no more difficult, just different.

Brent,
I agree with most of Angus’s comments except for #4. The question of rudder position is far from settled. All of my Footys (even after the ‘box rule’) have been built with rudders that are at least 2/3 under the hulls. I have been racing them for more than a year in various conditions and I have never been beaten by a boat with a transom-hung rudder although I have raced against many of them. The most common comment I get when I loan the boats out to other skippers is “Smooth” when describing the handling. For pictures of the various boats, check out “Huntington Footys” on the Yahoo site.

The best thing about Footys is the ability to easily try things, so put the rudder where you want!
Scott

My apologies. Having read Scott’s post, I realised that my maunderings on rudder position relect neither what I believe nor what I practice.

The trick is to maximise the steering force generated by the rudder for a given helm input. At first sight, this means mounting the rudder as far aft as possible. However, there are traps.

  1. In order to use the lightest possible servo, we want some ‘balance’ in the rudder - i.e. some area forward of the pivot line.

  2. This fits in nicely with the problem of air entrainment. If the top of the rudder pierces the surface, it will tend to suck air down along the blade, so more helm angle will be required with attendant drag. Most of the entrainment wil occur in the foward 35% (ish) of the chord (fore and aft length). It is therefore a good idea to keep this piece of the rudder undder the hull - which is much the same as having a trasom hung rudder with its stock attached to the outside of the transom. If the stern is very wide and inclined to lift out when heeled, move the rudder furher forward - although in my view total redesign would be better:devil3:.

Hull-rudder gaps should be sealed’ ‘Leaks’ at wing roots generate a LOT of drag.

One other point. The plan form of the rudder is not very important, but the angle of the stock is. A rudder with a sept back stock may look fast but almost inevitably results in evil handling for resonably simple geometrical reasons.

Angus and Scott,

Thanks for the advice so far. The rudder stock is vertical with a mostly rectangular planform. The stock is about 1/3 from the LE and will be mounted as close to the transom as I can get it so some of the rudder will be under the stern. I’ll start there (since I’d already made provisions) and try moving it under the hull after I’ve sailed her to see the difference.

The hardest thing about a Footy so far is not moving on to the next one before this one is ready to sail!

The second hardest thing is prying myself away from all the great information here long enough to build something.

“Eventually all great plans must degenerate into actual work.”

Take care,

Brent

If you want any more ‘help’, please ask.

More questions now that I’m getting closer. I’m hoping to sail tomorrow.

My boat all up except the bulb should come in at about 180-190g. Do I shoot for a specific ballast ratio or go with as much ballast as required to get the boat to float on her lines?

I’m guessing once a hull is designed it has a target weight (displacement?) so lighter construction for a given design just means a better ballast ratio and that going with a lighter bulb would be unwise.

Thanks for any insight.

Here are the weights for the components I have built so far:

Hull/deck 30g (includes mast step, rudder tube, bulkheads etc.)
Fin 12.8g
Rudder 3g
Sail servo arm 1.8g

Weights of other stuff I’ve checked:

Rudder servo 8g
Sail servo 27g
Rx 5.7g
Battery/switch 61g (this for 4 Energizer regular AAA, I added 15g to my all up weight for Lithium AA)

To be determined:

McRig ?g

Take care,

Brent

Sounds not bad at all! Understanding og ballast weight/displacement/the awful day of rslity is genertally very oind.

Go for it!

:zbeer:

The designed displacement for Razor was 500 grams, though they’ve been built and successfully sailed at different weights.

Bill H

WHAT ! does this mean?

It must have been quite a party!!!

I think this means that Brent has a pretty good idea og what to do when the weights don’t work out. Rod’s altrnative reading may be nearer to the truth.

Hppy new year to all!

Just to remind you Footy veterans how much anticipated the maiden voyage of your first Footy is I submit the following;

Finished the McRig this morning about 12:30a.

Rushed home from work about 5p, mounted the fairlead - a round piece of teflon which I thought would be the greatest thing ever, er, not so much as it turns out…routed and attached the sheet (took me 15 minutes to pull it up through the 1/32" hole near the transom)… daylight is fading so no time to make a bowser, a clove hitch/half hitch around the rudder post fills the bill…plug in the Rx and battery, tape the deck cover on, cycle to the small pond down the street with still enough daylight to see the sail…check radio, rudder is reversed, quick fix (computer radio)…attempt launch…the water did not accomodate the box rule…water in Florida is very thin so I had to carry it out about 10 feet into the muck to get the currently requisite 8" depth(air temp about 43F)…she’s off…sheeting in results in small popping sound as too little hot glue holding the sail servo to half bulkhead lets go… who needs sail control? 10 minutes later I wade out from the opposite shore to retrieve her - goofy smile and all.

Completely dark now I take her back home, replace the fairlead with a more conventional eyescrew, slightly scuff sand and re-glue the sail servo then convince my wife to walk to the bigger pond for the 2nd outing of the day. Other than the fact that I could barely see the boat let alone the sails this trip was completely successful.

Thanks to all here, especially those who have been so generous with information, for my latest addiction. Really looking forward to Saturday. Do Footys sail okay in the light of day?

Brent

Brent - dont we all?

It is believed that footys can be sailed in daylight - if you achieve this please let us have some pics.

We would be interested in your macRig - not least because I am about to knit one for my razor this weekend- and hopefully give it a sail on the local canal, probably at dawn on sunday.

andrew

carfull of the gators

nice one glad its sucsesfull,i was hoping to do some floodlit sailing at our place but it sucks the wind always dies of when it gets dark.will have to have a few races when im over next

uksail,

Email when you are back we will definitely get together.

Andrew and others,

Here are some pictures of the depron Razor. They were out of bright yellow So-Lite…

The inside hull picture shows all the internal structure except for small ply reinforcements at the two sheet lead locations.

As for the MacRig all dimensions from Brett and IanHB’s intro to the rig:

Mast 3mm x 460mm carbon tube
Boom: 1.5mm x 340mm carbon rod
Foot/Pivot: 1.6mm x 200mm SS bicycle spoke
Boom to Foot attachment: Thread and CA
Sail: Highlander Clearphane from Michael’s Craft store, scotch tape
Mast Step: Teflon standoff from surplus store 1/4" OD ~2mm ID

Sail luff 450mm foot 300mm
I cut about a 2.5mm curve into the front edge of the blank used to form the luff sleeve. Apex was about 40% up from the foot.

Any help on how to tape this curve to the staright line on the sail while forming the sleeve would be appreciated. I got a nice pucker in the sleeve when I did mine. I doubt that turbulence in this area increases efficiency.

Take care,

Brent

Any help on how to tape this curve to the staright line on the sail while forming the sleeve would be appreciated. I got a nice pucker in the sleeve when I did mine. I doubt that turbulence in this area increases efficiency.

The only thing that occurs to me, if the sail material shrinks with heat, is to run a hot iron over the sleave on the assembled rig. The cure might be worse than the problem, though.

i’d say if youare are worrying about the sails shape, and pucker of the pocket, then you have a bigger problem in the fact the from the pictures, it looks like the rig is holding the leech closed really, hard. you don’t want those vertical creases in the back of the sail… i would use this sail for a while, however, as a “practice” sail, then once you get the sailing of the boat down, and maybe get some ideas of what you would do to modify it a little, make a good, “race sail”… until then though, i wouldn’t worry overly about the crinkle in the pocket…

good luck to ya!