Construction techniques/ballast ratio

Excuse me for this long post, but I’m not be able to make it shorter


Urca Footy Conception and consideration of the Footy construction weight
When I decided to make the Urca Footy Project for the competition, I preferred not considering the problems of wild duck and not go too far with the formulas because they are often wrong especially in little little scaled boat.
So I started from a situation of status, that is about what I was able to make based on my experiences.
First of all, the weight aspect, so I took into consideration the minimum weight of the structure + rc equipment to make a Footy and this is in short the results.

RC System
2 xServos (rudder + sail). min 25, max 50 grams
1x receiver min 5, max 10 grams
1 x accu min 25 max 50 grams
Cables-switch-various min 5 max 15 grams

The sum of minimum is 60 grams, the maximum sum of 105 grams.

For my boat I chose servants known that I would guarantee a good reliability but is also very light.
A HS55 (rudder) and HS225 (Sail) weighing 8 +28 grams: 36 grams total
For the receiver I used an old Jeti 5ch from about 10g.
For batteries I used a 350 mAh Lipo 2s by an integrated voltage regulator LM7805 total weight of about 30 grams, have not made the switch to mass saving, cables, sealing bags and various are about 5 grams
Servo horn sails and rudder control rod by a total of 4 grams
The total weight of the radio turns out to be: 36 +10 +30 +5 = about 85 grams

The structure
having already made monocoque hull (hull + deck integrated) for RG65 weighing less than 80 grams, I made an estimation for the footy and I assumed that 35 grams of the hull + deck mocoque are a goal achievable. This objective has been achieved without the use of molds by laminating the hull + deck monocoque with 2 layers of glass cloth 80 and one from 27 on a master of extruded polystyrene to be loosen as you can see on my site here:
http://www.progetto-urca.com/urca/progettando/URCA_Footy/costruendo/index.htm

After lamination, the hull was sanded and weight ready to paint is about 35 grams.
For the rig from 14 dm2 I assumed a weight of about 20 grams (then obtained) by analogy to rig of similar dimensions made for RG65.
The fin and the complete rudder + axis, by analogy with other similar carbon-made Rohacell that I realized, it was estimated at 30 grams total.
The result could be more light, but considering that the hull “wall” is about 0.15 mm, the boat should always handle by the fin and then … better a little bit stronger
The internal wiring, the supports of the servos, the mast step and glue to hold everything together are about 6 grams
The glossy painting of hull and appendages makes about 10 grams
The closing of hatches + transparent plastic adhesive tape is 4 grams.

Total structure ready to sail: 105 grams
This results in weight over all without bulb of 190 grams.

I know that doing the hull in depron could recover about 15-20 grams, 10 grams less from fin and rudder, servos + battery saving in weight could be another 20, but to descend much more should I entrust myself to not electronic so reliable under fading.

So the minimum weight reasonably achievable I think is around 135-140 grams and to have a ratio of 0.6 between bulb weight and total weight is needed a bulb of 220 grams and a total of 350-360 grams, but I think that it is really the limit with all the construction and boat a little 'fragile.

So I considered my estimated 190 grams for the structure+ electronics as a good compromise between low weight and reliability, also because the races are won always arriving at the end and, hoping not to jinx, I can say that so far, three years, I have never once stayed at the mark for reliability issues ... so I guess it was a good choice. At this point, in order to have a good relationship bulb weight / total weight of at least 0.6 it follows that the bulb must weigh at least 300 grams and so I did.
So Urca Footy V2 weighs just under 500 grams with 300 grams of bulb

Of course, since the draft of footy with geometries about standard is fixed for all and righting moment derived from a ratio 0.6 is comparable between the various boats it follows that more weight in the bulb means more sail area
So, being the weight of the bulb the engine of the boat with the sails do not consider derogated fall below 0.6 in this ratio on a racing boat “all weather”.

Then I looked at the data I found and about the weights of the boats and I deduced that the maximum acceptable for a competitive Footy all weather was around 500-550 grams.
This confirmed my assumptions and assume that that boat with bulb weight ratio / total weight worst than 0.6 were not even to be taken into account and that they should not in any case exceed 200 grams of structure + RC less than accept from starting to be heavily penalized at the project level.

This is very important expecially in a boat like the Footy that has a number of sets of sails free and which in practice is always taken to the limit of the heel, and then uses the rightening of weight even in the condition of air weak.

Appearance of hydrodynamic stability
since with a boat always at the edge of the sail area and mass ridiculous to rise from 30 to 60 degrees of heel is a constant continuous, rather, a continuous oscillation, especially in lakes with obstacles around which disrupt the breeze, I considered of fundamental importance the greater directional stability as possible in order to stay on course and govern even with more than 50 degrees of heel.
This may seem OT, but I think the greater inertia of the boat will also help maintain the direction and the damping of oscillations, so I think that a heavy boat 500 grams may have a small advantage over a more than 350 due to its inertia.

Hydrodynamic and aerodynamic appearance sails appendices
To consider the balance between heeling moment and righting moment, I prefer not to use formulas that consider the aerodynamic lift or other “pure” because all models and footy are especially slow and small, and move in a flow much more disturbed than any other vessel… so using a linear formula to solve a non linear problem is quite always a big mistakes.

Therefore, as with the other models, to test the lateral stability I use a parametric system for simplified formulas with coefficient balance report here attached.
Formula heeling moment: MSB = (*) x (Sup tot) x VV2 x Ca x cos (f)
Formula righting moment: MRA = (d ') x (mass bulb) x sin (f)
where:

  • (*)is the experimental coefficient of the resulting sails for the “real boats” which was about the book and I made a correction on the basis of experimental observations on models: now I use 0.07 which gives plausible results.
    -VV2 is the wind speed squared
    -Ca is the distance between sailing center and center of lateral efforts(in height, of course): the resultant of the side forces in first approx could be placed on the center of gravity of the fin
  • (F) is the angle of heel
    -D 'is the distance between the water line and the center of gravity / axis of the bulb.

Then, with my calculation program in excel (where there are all geometric data of the boat) I enter the coefficient (*) obtained experimentally by observations at sea heeling the boat to the wind and refined during the tests.

This allows me to predict with a good approximation of how much sail I can take sailing upwind with the boat that I have all the data.
From tests done, my footy with 8-9 knots sails without problems holding the rig of 15 dm2, then the graphs posted are slightly pessimistic.

I think the streamlined appearance as well as hydrodynamic are the two major components that can make a tangible advantage to boats “heavy”.

Assuming that a boat with 300 grams of bulb will have a larger and more high sails, the aerodynamic advantage will depend on two factors in parallel:

  1. an higher Reynolds number of operation of the sail because, being equal all other factors will have an average chord probably greater
  2. the average of the sail area farthest from the water, then exposed by a flow a little less noise and less “slowed down” by the effect of the gradient.
    The greater height of the sail plan will be a big advantage in days of very light or almost absent conditions and will not be so disadvantageous in the days of strong wind because if the boat heels coping well with more than 45 degrees of hell and keeping the control without act on the rudder, in this case will benefit from the effect of the gradient. During the blast skidding will sail very close to the water surface where the wind will be much less than what we perceive as half a meter or 1 meter in height.
    Considering the gradient also explains very well as a well-balanced footy can bring a surface of sails larger than that habitually used in equal righting moment from any other sailing model.

At the same time, large sails also require a largest fin that will have greater wet surface but also the advantage of a higher Reynolds number of exercise and the ability to stall less, especially at very low speed.

continue in next post

continue…

From this my examination it seems that a boat with a bulb of 300 grams and 500 grams of weight may have advantages over a bulb of 200 and 350 grams of weight over the following points:

  1. increased inertia and stability on the trajectory and roll oscillations in the burst and in turn
  2. best operating Re for sails and appendages
  3. better flow on the sails with a little heel due to the gradient (more tangible effect with little wind)
  4. a massive hull, reducing the sail rig to a minimum should tolerate better the condition of strong winds due to its volume
  5. greater solidity allowing more robust construction on a comparable bulb weight / total weight

elements according to which may be equal :

  1. The greater weight is penalized in acceleration, but is better in slowing down and should help balance the two effects
  2. similar behavior in strong winds: the higher rig is not penalized if the boat maintains good control with heeling above average due to the effect of the gradient

elements lead lighter boat

  1. The stability to the pitching to carriers could favor the low displacement because bringing smaller sails and less high torque which tends to submerge the bow is much smaller for the same length of the hull

Regarding choppy conditions, at the moment I found that this problem could by reduced by the hull shape making thin water lines near bow and more linear the bottom of the hull in lateral side view, so I won’t try to reduce bulb weight to cope with this problem.

For the conclusions, for mine next boat the big challenge is still making a lighter structure + rc of about 160 grams with little changes in hull shape but with a bulb of 330 grams and the actual same final weight.

That’s great, Claudio…I’m glad you got something out of this discussion, too.

Bill

p.s. regarding the PM you just sent me. I do not know why you think I used the wrong number for the distance from water line to the sail CE in my calculation using your formula, since you don’t have my boat to measure from. As I said in a prior post, this is what I did. “Plugging those values into your formula gives 2.11 x .253 x .5 = .5 x 1.22 x SA x 20.25 x .210 x .866 which results in SA = 1000cm2.” My waterline to bulb center is 253, and my waterline to CE of my McRig that is close to 1000cm2 is 210mm, as I said in that post. I have a longer fin and lower aspect ratio sail plan than your boat, and a higher ballast ratio, which combine in the ability to carry relatively large sail area in a given wind compared to your boat. Your formula does not predict performance, it just predicts sail area, so maybe your boat will be faster than mine…there’s a lot more to winning races than sail area. If you made a mistake in the numbers you published for your boat, then go ahead and correct them. If I made any errors in my measurement, mea culpa…but there is no way you could know that, is there. Please, let this go…you are running it into the ground and have hijacked my thread from its original point of discussion. This is supposed to be about lightweight construction techniques. If you insist on debating your math, please start a new thread.

Phil, thanks for that info. My hulls were 3mm Depron. Using 1/64 ply I get a canoe hull…no deck…of 30g. I’m guessing you can do closer to 10g…would that be true?

I may have to see if I can get some of that 5mm and give it a try.

Bill

Bill

I still have a Skinny v-12 delta rigged hanging on the wall… servo’s been stripped and rudder used on the rg’s…

don’t think I’ll get the footy bug any time soon…it was fun though…

@Phil:

Re post #40:
Looks so simple… wouldn’t it need some strength members in the centre for the keel fin and mast? (And maybe something for the rudder)
I am guessing this would use a shroudless swing rig so no backstay/forestay/chainplates…

Bill
I do apologizes since in did not figured out the benefit of a Mc Rig. Good lesson for me !
I have reconsidered and made a trial of your boat configuration with the number you gave and found out that you may go up to 1150cm² of Sail Area using 211g of bulb and also have better righting moment overall compared to the actual Esterel-Footy.
Sorry for all that
ClaudioD

Hi Penguin
My previous 3mm Depron hulls have survived OK without any internal reinforcement so I’m trusting that 5mm will do fine. The mast tube and keel box will both be supported sufficiently at deck and bottom level. The rudder tube is more problematic, being supported at the bottom but requiring some internal triangulated bracing just under the deck level. I know that I could have a through tube for the rudder, with above deck controls, but I just don’t like the idea of the servo protruding above deck so I’m stuck with this solution for now.
I plan to use a shroudless swing rig which pivots in an aluminium tube with an aluminium rod at it’s base.
I think the most involved part of this build is creating the keel box under 5 g and this certainly takes longer than anything else! I know that the fin could be bonded straight in but I like the idea of retaining the possibility of changing ballast and I can’t figure out a good way to make a temporary fixing between ballast and fin.
I hope the pictures give a clear enough view.
Cheers
Phil

Hi Bill
I think a 10’ish g hull is possible with 3mm Depron. However, having tried a 5mm hull, I think this is the way to go. There are, of course, some disadvantages: it’s a few g’s heavier, it’s a little trickier to bend, it leaves a little less space in the hull cavity (particularly tricky with a narrow stern and an internal rudder horn). However, to my mind, the strength and stiffness improvements far out weigh the disadvantages.
I have also revised my thinking to be more in line with Claudio V’s well thought out strategy. Rather than focussing exclusively on light weighting, I’m inclined to add a few g’s to achieve a more reliable set-up.
Another thank you Claudio V for sharing on this forum and for the links he’s provided to the fascinating developments on a few Italian sites.
Cheers
Phil

Phil, are you using UHU Por for glue? One of the things I found a bit difficult with foam was having to bevel the edges to get a good fit of the panels. I guess with a flat bottom you can do it all with butt joints, though…and I have a flat-bottom design that has worked well in wood. Maybe I’ll try that in foam.

Your electronics package looks really nice…can you tell us what you are using? Did you make the servo board from carbon? I heard a rumor that Roger is using a tiny sail servo like our rudder servos, because his powerlever doesn’t need so much torque…do you know if that is true?

Shaving weight isn’t helpful if the boat isn’t strong enough to survive race conditions, that’s for sure. When you opt for a displacement in the 500g range, there’s more wiggle room to use a bit heavier material and still have a good ballast ratio. When you go for the 300-350g boat, it gets tricky.

Thanks…Bill

Claudio, your analysis is thorough and well considered. Before you get to building again, though, I think it would be worthwhile for you to sail Esterel for a while. Then you can evaluate her strengths and weaknesses, and decide what you’d like to change. I know you have a lot of sailing experience, but Footys are a bit different from larger boats. I think you’ll find that the only way to really get to know Footys is to sail them a fair amount.

All the best…Bill

Oops…Sorry Claudios…got mixed up…gotta watch my Vs and Ds

Bill

Don’t worry Bill,
for me, Footy are already big boats compared to my World Guinness Record with MiniFreccia.
What toke me out of the track was the McRig and the lower CE position that can offer with the same surface.
Sorry for mixing up, Now I know !
Cheers
ClaudioD

Hi Bill
Yes, I’m using UHU Por for the Depron to Depron but switch to epoxy glue with short glass fibres mixed in for the Depron to other materials. I used to run an extra bead of Por on the inside of my 3mm joints but haven’t bothered yet with the 5mm as there is greater surface contact area.
The only bevel I’ve needed for the Box designs is to joint the side panels at the at the bow. I hope the pictures illustrate the technique of using a guide line, resting the knife on the edge of a cutting mat and then cutting with a sawing action but only cutting on the down stroke. The finished bevel is pretty accurate but can be sanded with silicone carbide paper over a block if necessary. Since the Depron is pretty forgiving, I think it would be fine to tackle longer and even curved bevelled seams.
The servo tray in the picture has been routed from 1mm carbon, is slid under a small retaining tab and then secured with a single bolt for rapid removal. The receiver is a 3.5 g Planet 2.4, the servos are both from Jamara: a 5 g Pico Low with 4.8 v torque of 1.2 for the rudder and a 16 g Hi End 4213 with 4.8 v torque of 4.2 for the sail. I’ve been using a regular sail lever rather than Roger’s power lever but ensured that the lever is oriented to a few degrees off parallel with the sheet when close hauled to minimise servo load. This is one of many great tips I picked up from Marcus’ very informative footy info download available on his Alp Yachts site.
On the all up weight front, I’ve decided that you can only go so light and retain a ballast ratio of over 60% so my general all up target weight is 400ish g. Motivated by Claudio V’s analysis, I’ve just produced a 290 g bulb which I’m hoping will give an all up sailing weight of about 430 g and a ballast ratio of 67% for Box Mk4.
Cheers
Phil

In all of these discussions, there has been no mention of nose-diving on the down-wind legs of a race. A light boat will need less sail, and therefore be less susceptible, assuming the beam is kept constant. As you all know, one nose-dive can take you out of a race. Bill has reduced that problem with a fat upper prow on his Half Pint Too, but at the expense of keel depth and sail shape, with the 3D placement in the rule box. The reverse prow on Claudio’s boat should increase the risk of nose-diving.

It might also be desirable to design a hull with a little extra rocker, to get the bow and stern out of the water until the wind picks up enough to make a bow wave, with the resulting sinkage, meanwhile reducing wetted surface when the wind dies.

sorry for the OT
I will tend to be less affirmative then you ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aio9comM4JQ
http://www.aeroyacht.com/catamaran-learning-center-2/wave-piercing-bows/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mqcpe5au_7M
ClaudioD

Stability in the pitch axis is much different in small model boats when compared to full-size boats. That’s why nobody uses spinnakers on model boats (besides the difficulty of controlling them remotely). It only takes a small pitch angle to put the bow under water, so the keel bulb doesn’t help much. The form stability of the hull is dominant.

If you look at the components of pitch stability (sail height, hull shape, etc), you will see that they don’t scale the same way as roll stability. Short hulls are much more susceptible, and the Footy is especially tender. So a reverse prow might be helpful on a full size hull, but is probably a hindrance on a Footy. The references that you quote are all full-size hulls, except for the towing tank pictures. But the towing tank model is probably not being overpowered with a large torque in the pitch axis from a sail force applied high above the deck.

Typically, when the boat is overpowered while beating, it heels over drastically but keeps going. But downwind, the prow goes under and doesn’t come up until the boat broaches, goes dead in the water, and becomes uncontrollable until the gust dies. This has nothing to do with waves, it happens in flat water.

Spinnakers pull up the bow not down !
ClaudioD

Really?
Can you draw us a cartoon to prove that?

I also noticed the benefit of less nose diving with the delta rig. while not a spinnaker straight line winds will hit the sail which is angled and wind will get displaced downward while exerting upward force on the sail. newtons equal and opposite reaction… but the delta rigged sail is attached at the bow. while the spinaker is generally attached further aft.

these guys seem be doing pretty good…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6kNSQz3l7k&feature=player_embedded#

these guys not so good…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXM_93TIMZE&feature=player_embedded#

With regard to the spinnaker, the tail of the force vector on the sail is still far above the pitch pivot point, so the net torque about the pitch axis is always nose-down.