Canting Keel Trainer

So - based on the first post…

<font color=“green”><u>DECISION:</u>This is Doug’s design/idea and size of boat will be between 24 inches and 30 inches. There still isn’t a decision for overall length because it is “somewhere” between 24 and 30 inches - Therefore, I will be brave and simply say - it’s 27 inches in length - maximum. That is directly in the middle of 24 - 30 inches.</font id=“green”>
<font color=“green”><u>DECISION:</u>
Doug appears to be the “owner/spearhead” of this topic and class. </font id=“green”>Therefore - Doug - please call the next question and let’s settle on it! Maximum of 1 week discussion on any question - all answers in by Thursday night with decision made and posted on Friday!

<font color=“red”>What is the minimum/maximum beam?</font id=“red”>

<font color=“red”>What is the sail area maximum/minimum?</font id=“red”>

<font color=“red”>What is the maximum limit for mast height?</font id=“red”>

<font color=“red”>Rotating mast or fixed mast?</font id=“red”>

<font color=“red”>What is maximum/minimum weight?</font id=“red”>

Just linking this in with anothe thread about a boat around the same size, the NS600 aint far off this, howsabout having it fit their rules, North’s will surely love the free advertising…

Luff 'em & leave 'em.

i like dicks approach
lets make a decision and get on with it. each week we come up with where we want to put the maxium lenght. discuss it and decide. doug is trying to do the same thing that i am. BUT with a little feed back. I want an americas cup boat in the 1/20 scale. so we have some parameters there. now you have to decide here. should your boat be 27 or 30 inch. i say 30 inch , because the water can get rough and a small boat will have a rough time in windy condition
good luck
cougar

Doubt 3 of loa inches will add much to the seaworthyness, itll just mean you need a bit more sail area therefore a bit taller mast etc, go small, keeps the costs down for starters…

Luff 'em & leave 'em.

I really like the North Sails 600(23.6") and will definitely participate in that class someday-I hope- but it is a development class-180 degrees opposite of this class which is conceived of as Strict One Design(which I will add to the first post if I haven’t already) so that beginners don’t have to get into the engineering and design -they can just sail. I’m leaning toward 30" as well because having sailed a 24" model I think it is borderline too small and hard to see etc for beginners-but I’m still open to ideas.
As I said earlier there is no rush to make any decisions but anybody that wants to post suggestions is welcome to do so.
I’m also leaning toward 30" because of the potential performance of the boat sailing against other plastic fantastics- and since it is a canting keel boat 30" should work with two pounds of ballast.Beam of the boat depends on the type of canting keel mechanism being used-you can’t just pick a certain width. As I said earlier when I know more about a mechanism I’ll post it. The desirable thing would be to have the boat as narrow as possible within the constraints of the mechanics.I’m leaning toward a main only with the mast stepped in the boom to semi balance the rig making the sail winch requirement smaller than otherwise. I think the sail/rig should be designed to reef(very simple) to widen the sailing range of the boat.
No one(I don’t think) has commented significantly on the kind of lateral resistance the boat should have -I’m leaning toward either wings on the keel or a daggerboard.
So there is still a lot more technical stuff to understand before final decisions can be made intelligently …

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

I agree with Mat. The North’s 600 is a basic class;
OA length 600mm,
keel to mast head 1050mm,
I think most dense material is lead,
anything else is legal, simple!!!

The name might be a bit miss leading, as North Sails (the company) does not have anything involvment except that it was started by some of the young sailmakers who work there, now there are boats been built by other people.

Doug - I’m trying to get you (and others) to just make a decision and get on with it. If like a few other examples, we can sit and write about “theory” until we are so sick of the “project” that it never happens - except in each of our minds.

Unlike you, I would prefer to grab a few basics, allow a period of development and then focus in on a design that makes sense and has proven, on-water racing experience. You know - sail it, change it and sail it again. If you don’t move forward, as I noted, we will all be sitting around “waiting” for the latest Bantock/Wolfson polars that can’t seem to be printed or posted, even though they “indicate” a fast performing boat. A year from now, it sure would be fun to actually be sailing something. And - at the same time, seeing how others have developed a canting keel and dealt with technical problems or issues.

Of course, your track record seems to be to analyze this thing to death. For goodness sake - it’s a boat less than 3 feet long, and you are trying to keep costs under - what $500? Do we really need to be so anal about this boat? It isn’t a Marblehead, IOM or US1M. It isn’t an ODOM or anything else related to those boats, their size or their technical requirements. It’s a “TRAINER” - how difficult do we need to make it? You can use a 2x4 piece of wood, sharpened on one end, add your idea of a canting keel, put a wood dowel into it, a couple of servos and rudder and add some Tyvek housewrap for a sail. It’s done - now go out and sail it and see how it performs. Perhaps it’s faster/slower than the other guy’s 2x3 or 2x6 hull. Perhaps it can use a smaller keel or a larger one. Why 2 lbs when perhaps 1 1/2 or 3 lbs. will work or be needed? Do you get my point? Will this become another of your discuss and argue about things but never put it on the water against another so we can see what works and what doesn’t? WHAT are <u>you</u> really trying to accomplish - string out this topic so next spring we will be no further ahead than now - or do you want to have a few boats on the water to see what works and what doesn’t.

Frankly, I would like to see how “MY” ideas stack up against Will, you and Greg. It isn’t going to happen if we all sit around with thumbs up our (well, somewhere) waiting for a majority agreement of opinion. Build a boat. Race it. Modify it - all within “general rules sizes and specifications”. If it’s inexpensive to build, let the first ones become a throw-away. Is it development or not? If not - let’s just see what kind of pricing discount Grunta would offer for an initial order of 30 boats. Then you already have a proven, technically new, canting keel boat.

My point, is that if you want to develop something like this - but want to string it out until every possible item and size has been discussed 27 times, I’m calling “bullshit” - cause it isn’t going to happen. In fact, if it’s really a home build project, I’m concerned that there still won’t be 15-20 people to take the time to homebuild one of these. THAT is just my opinon, of course.

Either way - get up and get this thing going - or just forget about it, and we’ll bury it along with other “great ideas” that never made it to the lake, and get on with something else.

Anybody that wants to is encouraged to build a protoype and tell us about it! Especially how your canting keel mechanism works etc.
I don’t like the idea of combining this boat and the North Sails 600 but that shouldn’t stop anyone from building one of those- I think that is a cool class!
So go ahead and build a prototype Dick and when I can I will too and maybe Matt, John and Will as well. Nothing prevents anyone from contributing in that manner-as a matter of fact I think it is a great idea! I’d suggest a 30" hull 14" canting keel strut,two pounds of ballast and whatever lateral resistance you desire. But by all means build one!

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

This is not my boat; it is a cooperative design idea that is being discused by members of this forum to produce the design for the ideal canting keel trainer.It could be built by anybody-in fact it sounds like Dick Lemke may be going to build the first prototype.

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

Ideally, the boat should be able to be built by a homebuilder and /or any other builder. Matt knows someone in the UK that might be interested. Dick expressed great interest in building one earlier(I think). The idea is to make this boat easily accessible and NOT have it marketed thru Hobby Shops or other retail/distribution networks. That keeps costs down.
Various manufacturers/individuals may be able to contribute parts etc.Individuals can build prototypes NOW if they so choose-absolutely NOTHING prevents someone from going ahead NOW with their vision of this boat.
Ideas along this line are wide open and welcome.

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

As a “strict one design” how can the boats be built by home builders and manufactuers?

Carefull measurement is one way; good kits are another another way. Hulls and or hull/deck combinations produced from a class mold etc-there are a number of potential solutions.
What would you suggest, Roy?

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

doug
why dont you use a IOM hull or a US 1imeter hull as your base. both can be made by the average joe. and pretty sure everybody has one hull around that they could modifiy to have a canting keel.
it is just a tought
cougar

Cougar, thanks for the suggestion but the added length would probably increase costs a lot-maybe double. And the idea is to keep all the boats identical…

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

i was just thinking about how many boat hull i have in the basement, that are gathering dust. if you want to keep cost down. then we could use our old hull. that is all i meant by it. i can see you idea about keeping thing identical though
cougar

The simple answer is you can’t have a “strict one design” and let it be built by both home builders and manufactuers. You could sell “kits” that consist of planks and frames and let home builders buy plans and cut their own wood but even then it would be close to impossible to control weights and construction methods for a “strict one design”.

If you therefore are looking at a manufactured kit boat, well, I know a little bit about what it costs to put a boat into production and unless someone was willing to invest in the tooling for mass production, there is virtually no way this boat can be sold for under $400 including rig, radio, winch and servos. To give you a basic idea of what things costs the molds for the r/c laser hull were in excess of $250,000. This requires minimum sales of thousands of boats to pay back investment. Another example–to get significant price breaks on radio gear you need to place minimum orders for 100s of units (and in this case you need a minimum three channel radio). And to get decent sails made at low prices, well lets just say its a trick thats very hard to pull off.

All in all I think Greg has it right, this is fantasy baseball…

was becoming to think the same…now I do think like you guys…too bad

Wis

if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it!

http://wismerhell.esmartdesign.com/index.htm

I know for a fact that an excellent quality epoxy glass mold for a boat this size could be built for around $250; using the material and process of the Laser is out of the question and not necessary.
There are full size sailboat classes that are strict one designs that are built by multiple builders including homebuilders; it depends on the level of measurement and the system devised to insure that it is done right. The class could own the plug(s) and lease or loan it to qualified builders making investment in tooling minimal for a builder to get started.
There are excellent quality three or four channel radios available for around $120.
I believe this can be done if the boat and class are thoughtfully designed and if problems are solved as they come up…

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

See original post for updated parameters

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

This is truly silly. You came up with the criteria of “strict one design” that could be built at home and your answer as to how this is to be done is that the proposed class would loan a plug out to qualified builders? So your “trainer” is now limited to “home builders” who regularly build glass boats out of molds and plugs? What about the deck? Another mold to be sent out? And you still haven’t addressed control of weight and cloth and resin? Do you want to require each home built boat to be sent to the class secretary for measurement?

And you also haven’t dealt with the keel fin(s). I assume for the boat to have a canting keel you need to have a stiff fin and some kind of additional strut for balance. How is the home builder going to do this? Hand shape aluminum? Send out a set of class fin molds and let some one learn to do carbon fiber work? And how do you keep all of this home building “strict one design”? (If your answer is to supply manufacture fins, there go your costs.) And from who and for how much will the keel canting mechanism be supplied?

Finally, you say that good three channel radios can be purchased for $120. If you add the cost of a sail winch and the keel canting servo, you should be close to $200 which is half you total budget for radio gear alone.

The conclusion is obvious. If this is a real boat for the real world the criteria has to change. If it is to be built by home builders forget “strict one design”. If it is to manufactured, unless you can find someone willing to invest in mass market tooling, forget the $400 to the customer price.