Its strange because my square Hoyt swing rig is fine on both my Bottle Boat and my V-12 I just need to get round to making a smaller one.
the v-12 looks like its powering nicely with the hoyt rig not over powered, bow not being pushed too deep…My swing rig the sails are a smige larger than the stock v-12 sails. and she goes bow down pretty easily… enough that Ive considered removing my bulb and shifting it more rear ward…
Marc, I would try moving the batteries aft and sail for a few weeks like that before undertaking surgery.
batteries are aft, just infront of the rudder post. rudder servo (spektrum mini)is just off the transom to the right of the rudder post. and the sail servo (s3115 i think) is to the left of the keel in front of the batteries, and the reciever (spektrum) is on the right side of the keel.
everthing is behind the mast.
I could just be carrying too much sail…
we have a kitiwake and another v-12 both with McRigs in the club…and I’m carrying much more sail than either. but she’s fast… even with her bow in the water
I’m thinking about taking my test bed v-12 (i have 2) remove the deck rudder and keel cut the transom, and squeeze it together to narrow it up a bit and then rebuild. Although I could just build identically to the current setup and then just keep swaping out rigs…
fwiw to remove the ballast should be easy… just need to extricate(grind) the epoxy and unscrew the bulb…drill a new hole and reinstall and re fair the keel. good winter project…
Marc, do you have a MkI or a MkII V-12?
both are old v-12. with the internal rudder post assembly and low freeboard.
I have also though about moving the rudder to the transom and giving myself a few extra cm of space inside…as well…
I did a V-12.05 and did the internal changes for the servos, however I did make my own rudder bigger but using the same position that sticks out the back of the box by 50mm
I am not to happy with either the new mast position or the transom mounted rudder
heer is a profile of mine pre swing rig. but the swing rig is about the same size
rudder is abut the size of a victoria’s and the keel is different
Having been accused of complicating things I’ll shut up on the reasons why, but there are good reasons why swept-back rudders - particularly one with swept-back stocks don’t steer well. Keep it as a vertical dagger, even if you do loose a little lever arm. Even better, rake the stock slightly FORWARD. Doesn’t ‘look as fast’, but it definitely works better when the boat is heeled.
:zbeer::zbeer:
angus,
I alway notice that my albacore turned better with the rudder a touch forward. when my footy sits in the water the rudder is almost verticle. but it has no problems turning …evn when the bow is burried…
Niel,
I wanted to let you know I tried a 15 degree aft rake mast step out on my BC3 hull this weekend. It didn’t present any particular problems but it remains to be seen if it adds anything. The mast step had to be moved 3" forward to establish the proper axis of rotation. Sadly this boat didn’t tack reliably with the standard swing rig so it wasn’t an ideal test bed. It wasn’t windy enough to see if there will be any lift provided by the rake on a run but I suspect it won’t be dramatic as even with 15 degrees of rake once the hull puts its nose down the mast is nearly back to vertical. A fatter hull might benefit more as the degree of downward pitch may be less.
On the other points of sail the performance seemed about the same as before. It does look funny going downwind with the mast angled 15 degrees athwartships.
One interesting thing happened. I was able to sheet out well past 90 degrees (more like 140 degrees) so the main could actually go well forward of the jib. If I would do this going from a run to a beat the rig would continue to draw even though it was effectively backwards i.e. main forward.
I’m thinking of putting a triangular sail rigged from a mast on the stern to an athwartships boom on the bow just as a proof on concept to see if there is lift to be gained when you go to the most extreme angle of rake available. At least I would know if the rake is worth pursuing.
Take care,
Brent
Brent - Check your email inbox, look for the “private messages” on the upper right hand of this page after you’ve logged in. - Niel
Brent - just to flatter you, i sailed a fat head at Clevedon got a 4th but rig was suffering from alot of lee helm - have to adjust but like the idea - no z wire
Andy,
That is really funny. I was looking at the pictures from Clevedon just now and thought “Wow that rig looks familiar.” I’m glad you gave it a try.
Lee helm is the easiest balance issue to cure for the swing rig on a Z bend as moving the plan back is simple and actually increases the rigs tendency to weather vane which is a good thing. I usually have a range of Z members with me from straight to 24mm offset in 6mm increments. Keep in mind you can make small adjustments by raking the mast slightly fore or aft just by opening or closing the bend that goes into the mast step. Also if you sheet forward you can set it up so the last few degrees of servo travel tilt the rig forward slightly.
Once the tune is right do you think you’ll like it?
Take care,
Brent
I’m working on two new swing rigs to test them against my existing rigs. Areas of all three rigs are 180 square inches/1160 square cm.
The first is just a low aspect variation of the fat head swing rig. It has a 15"/380mm luff compared to the 23"/584mm luff of the high aspect rig. I want to sail them side by side to see how they compare in different conditions of wind and water. It looks similar in planform to some of Scott Spacie’s rigs.
The second has a similar planform to the high aspect rig but the shape of the jib and main are modified. The jib has a constant chord of 2.5"/63.5mm. The mast runs parallell to the headstay and the leech is vertical.
The idea is for the jib to serve as a leading edge slat for the main. Early testing shows some promise but I’ve yet to to get any two boat testing done.
Any feedback?
Take care,
Brent
Your second thought there re. the parallel chord jib is a line I was thinking along too in the past. I have not been able to come to a conclusion about whether the jib acts as a lift enhancer for the main to a more or less extent than it’s own action as a smaller sail. It serves both purposes yes but which has the larger effect on overall rig lift I wonder. Your suggestion will perhaps force the jib further into the role of slat rather than sail and will be very interesting to follow.
As always watch the weathercocking areas
Graham
My learned friend Mr. Trewin might like to comment.:zbeer:
As you wish your honor.
Brent I have tried this as you can see from the pictures below
I have built a couple of these
They were quick across the wind as proved at Birkenhead with Trevor Thomas’s Minstralette but lousy to try and go up wind. In fairness, if i had your z wires to adjust it, i might have persued it. Both these rigs were designed to maximise the sail area under 300mm above the deck and trial WaltH’s winglets idea, with the dihedral on the thin bottle boat needed to stop the clew catching the water
Note the carbon edge to the jib!
I also sail a “Hoyt” off set swing rig that goes quite well. lots of folk dont understand it - there is a knack to sailing it because the sail can be either side of the mast
Rgds
AndyT
Thanks for the comments and the pictures. I thought some photos of the rig might be informative. The main luff pocket needs some adjustment but it did move the boat.
Both the jib and the rig as a whole weathervane very reliably at the current setting. If needed I can probably go to a slightly longer Z member and still get the rig to rotate properly. BC2 seemed well balanced with this Z member but BC3 had a little too much weather helm. I’m finding I like to balance Footies just shy of lee helm. The skinny hulls at least seem to tack more readily when so balanced.
I’m debating putting a litlle curve in the leech mostly for aesthetics.
Take care,
Brent
Brent you have done a good job here by having a a separate set of hinged jib clubs you have avoided my problem of very loose leaches, which does not give good sail shape and why I had to add a carbon strip to try and over come it
I will have to modify mine and give it another go and hopefully with your z pieces be able to improve it.
WaltH ~ appologies I should have listened to you