Ballot results

Bill N, once again I reiterate that there was a lengthy pro and con section that accompanied proposal #6. If Ian or anyone else didn’t bother to read it or did read it and didn’t understand it then it is the individual’s lapse. Proposal #6 was a yes or no vote over the omission of “restricted to 4 no. AA size batteries” and the addition of “to be”. Rules are all in the wording and in this case the change in wording was simple and straightforward.

I combed over the ballot with the rules beside me. I compared all the new wording in the ballot to the wording in the pre-ballot rule and gave a lot of thought to how to cast my votes and how those votes could effect the Footy class. That is the responsibility of individuals having a say in where the class is headed.

What bothers me more than the outcome is the lack of participation in the process. As you point out Bill, there were only 91 votes cast on proposal #6. There are well over 200 registered Footy owners in the US alone, and more in the UK and abroad. Why are so many voices silent?

One other thing - Thanks to John Amorosso and Bill Hagerup for their efforts on the US end of the ballot process.

Bill, your argument sounds familiar, ‘the ballot was confusing, I really didn’t mean to vote that way’. We heard it from too many Florida voters in 2000 and again in 2004, I didn’t realise that NZ had a similar problem.

Before this becomes anymore heated, I’d like to draw attention to another portion of that ballot, namely a quote;

“Please note that, in the event of a patently illogical
outcome (e.g. no controls but a definition), the
Management Committee will adjust the position to be
logically consistent while taking account of what they
believe to be members’ general feelings as expressed in
their votes. Unless we do this, the ballot paper will
become incredibly complicated with no significant gain.”

I am not a member of the Management Committee, and I don’t wish to put words into the mouths of others, but I have to imagine that they [the committee] are working towards setting the amended rules into a format that works. right gentlemen? :wink:

At this point it seems to me, that short of calling for a re-vote, (which would, I think be most uncouth) all we can do is wait to see what the amended rule looks like, and go from there. Is anyone on the committee able to shed light on the time frame we are looking at before a new set of rules becomes available? In all honesty, I am having a hard time truly envisioning what they say at this point… I know what the amendments say, and I know what the rules say, but until some sort of official format is put forth, can we really pass judgement?

Just ramblings. :scared: :graduate:

I’m glad you pointed that out Barrett. I’d forgotten about that little clause. It may or may not help but I’m glad to be reminded of it.

We are trying to get a draft of the new rule. The going is a bit slow with timezones and work schedules turning a short exchange of ideas into a multiple day event. My personal feelings are that a rush to get something done this year may have been, at least partly, the cause of some of our difficulties. Would you like a fast answer or the best answer? Keep in mind, elections have losers and elections with issues make the losers even more disappointed.

Well Sir, New Zealand does not have a similar problem.
It is just me, an individual who happens to be a New Zealander who has the problem.
Of course I bothered to read it, just because I am thick, dosen`t mean I am stupid.
My contention is that nowhere in that ballot paper was it made clear as to the question " Do you wish to retain the present 4 x AA battery rule ? " Yes/No
then “If you wish to change the rule, do you want the batteries to be located inside the hull ?” Yes/No. Simple enough.
When writing a public document one should never over estimate the ability of the public.
Remember english may not necessarily be the first language of the reader.
People need help in understanding what it is you expect of them.

The attitude " Well I understood everything so the rest of you can get stuffed " is I feel, not conducive to international understanding.
Best wishes to you all from your friend Ian.

Ian, I apolgise for my comment, It was not intended to malign you in particular, or New Zealand in general, but was an attempt to inject a bit of levity into what appears to have become a rather too contentious debate about the class rules controlling our tiny model boats. In the USA we have our first ever National Championship early next year. Right now a lot of new builds and rig projects are on hold, mine included. But let’s give the management committee the time and space needed to sort things out, and lets thank them for their efforts, since rule writing is a really thankless task.

Thank you my friend for your concern and please be assured that you have caused me no offence. :zbeer:
As you suggest I am now happy to shut up and let the management team get on with the task and honestly do wish them only the best.

As soon as the ballot results were posted, it was obvious that we were in trouble. In a voluntary organization, it is never a good idea to make an important change based on a very close vote. Regardless of whether the ballot could have been worded better, or not, the very close vote on the battery issue is bound to promote a schism if it is considered important by the participants. Based on the newsgroup traffic, it may indeed be an important issue to a lot of participants.

Most of the other issues had large majorities. The 12" sail issue was already being over-ridden by local sailing instructions at most US races. This change will also have no serious impact on boats already built.

The battery rule, however, will impact the competitiveness of every Footy already built. In my own case, the 4-cell AA Lithium battery pack is pushed as far to the stern as possible to compensate for the buoyancy of the enormous balsa rudder. A lighter battery would cause the bow to go nose-down. However, the rule change doesn’t really bother me, because I was about to build another boat anyway, and was awaiting the results of the vote. But others may not have the free time or inclination, and be more seriously impacted.

I wonder if the class leadership could find some way to invalidate the battery vote, due to its closeness and possibility of misunderstanding, as well as its possibility of fragmenting the class. But maybe it is too late.

It may also be useful to revise the voting rules to require a larger margin (perhaps 75% of votes cast) for any rule change. Some had advocated requiring a majority of all registered owners, but that is an impossible requirement.

It is also important to recognize that the class leadership is a group of volunteers, dedicated to sailing, and giving freely of their time and effort. Let us not make their task more difficult.

Update: The Committee has been over this thing with a fine tooth comb to make sure we’ve conducted it properly. The “Vote Only if” sections were more problematic than we anticipated. But the good news is that we have agreement on the major issues and a new version should ready in a couple of days if people can get to their email. The major difference from the posted counts is that proposals that did not gather a majority of the votes could not pass. 7b and 8c did not meet this requirement.

This whole business may seem simple from the outside but it’s really darn difficult when you know a whole bunch of folks are counting it being done right. This is not the fun part of Footys. On the plus side, we learned a great deal and future processing of proposed rule changes will go much smoother. The arguments over the merits will still be lively but the procedure will be much clearer. Ballots will not be a series of forked questions.

Thank you for your patience.

Here is the updated doc showing that 7b and 8c failed to gain a majority.
I notice that it is published incorrectly on the class website also…so please disregard that until it can be fixxed.

What exactly does that mean being as they claerly passed according to the votes cast for them? Please explain John.

First, I should like to thank everyone for their patience in waiting for the results of the rules ballot. It must be common knowledge by now that life has not been entirely a bed of roses. The difficulties have essentially been twofold – leaving aside the vexing (but hopefully not vexed) question of how easy the ballot was to understand.

First, there was undeniably a drafting error in proposition 7 which resulted in a logical inconsistency. Second, and far more important, nobody actually worked out in advance how the votes were to be interpreted – what did a majority on proposition N (x) actually mean? This may sound very silly and with the 20x20 vision of hindsight it was. Having said this, a large number of intelligent and hardworking people (plus myself !) were involved and failed to spot the pitfall.

In between sessions of wiping up the blood, the committee has spent to last few days trying to arrive at a consensus of whether the whole process was fatally flawed, whether we should try to interpolate ‘what we thought voters really meant’, whether – in the words of one member of the committee – things were ‘up for grabs’, or whether the proper answer was something else again.

It was established early on that, so far as virtually all the members of the committee were concerned, what we had to do was to ignore our own prejudices about what the outcome should be but at what was a fair and logical way of counting the votes. At this point, a miracle happened. I was approached by David Allsebrook of Toronto on another matter entirely. In his e-mail he mentioned that he had a legal background and experience in drafting model yacht rules – if we ever needed help, he would be pleased to give it. A few minutes on Google revealed that he was indeed a very eminent lawyer, a former Canadian Soling 1-metre Champion and a member of that class’s rules advisory committee. He has been of tremendous help, bringing rigour to the process and keeping us on the straight and narrow.

It is perhaps unfortunate that Brett has let the cat out of the bag without consulting anyone else. The results as published are correct – however they are not as daft as they may seem. In particular more people voted for 8© than against it, yet the proposition fails. Why? Is this skulduggery, madness or worse?

The outcome is based on David’s advice that

  1. The instructions on the ballot paper about what to vote for if you voted for something else have no significance. If people want to vote illogically or perversely, that is there right, and we are not entitled to second guess them.
  2. The Class Charter requires an absolute majority of votes to pass any motion. Since (with the exception of people whose registration is through the AMYA), there is no incentive to de-register, applying this rule to all registered boats would eventually result in any change in the rules being impossible (more people in the graveyards than out). Members must therefore be taken to mean ‘members who voted’. However, within that group the overall majority rule must apply. Since 91 people voted, in order to pass a motion must get 46 votes, even if more people voted Yes’ than ‘No’. In other words, more than half the people who voted must positively want a change. The last-minute change of 8© from ‘pass’ to ‘fail’ was because nobody noticed until the very last moment that it did not pass the 46 vote hurdle.

I do not think that the result is ideal, particularly on proposition 8. It certainly does not reflect my views or that of many people in the UK. I suspect that the same is true in the USA. It has been suggested to me that this is ridiculous and un-democratic – that proposition 8 is all one thing and that the numbers for each sub-proposition are necessarily diluted by the other three. However, at the end of the day there can be only one outcome of proposition 8. Therefore the position is perfectly logical. People did not want any of the proposed changes enough to overcome those who didn’t want them.

Sorry it’s been a bit traumatic and undoubtedly a 4 BA, stainless steel, countersunk, pan-headed cockup. If anyone wants a head to roll, let it be mine. In any event, my special thanks to David Allsebrook, John Amoroso, Flavio Faloci, Animor Dobrovich and the other people at national level who helped conduct the ballot – not forgetting Bill Hagerup and his technical team (Roger Stollery and Earl Boebert) for their hard work in drafting it.

Finally, my thanks to you, the members, for what has generally be a very well-tempered – if slightly trying – exercise.

And, oh yes, Happy Christmas

:zbeer::zbeer::zbeer::zbeer:

First, I should like to thank everyone for their patience in waiting for the results of the rules ballot. It must be common knowledge by now that life has not been entirely a bed of roses. The difficulties have essentially been twofold – leaving aside the vexing (but hopefully not vexed) question of how easy the ballot was to understand.

First, there was undeniably a drafting error in proposition 7 which resulted in a logical inconsistency. Second, and far more important, nobody actually worked out in advance how the votes were to be interpreted – what did a majority on proposition N (x) actually mean? This may sound very silly and with the 20x20 vision of hindsight it was. Having said this, a large number of intelligent and hardworking people (plus myself !) were involved and failed to spot the pitfall.

In between sessions of wiping up the blood, the committee has spent to last few days trying to arrive at a consensus of whether the whole process was fatally flawed, whether we should try to interpolate ‘what we thought voters really meant’, whether – in the words of one member of the committee – things were ‘up for grabs’, or whether the proper answer was something else again.

It was established early on that, so far as virtually all the members of the committee were concerned, what we had to do was to ignore our own prejudices about what the outcome should be but at what was a fair and logical way of counting the votes. At this point, a miracle happened. I was approached by David Allsebrook of Toronto on another matter entirely. In his e-mail he mentioned that he had a legal background and experience in drafting model yacht rules – if we ever needed help, he would be pleased to give it. A few minutes on Google revealed that he was indeed a very eminent lawyer, a former Canadian Soling 1-metre Champion and a member of that class’s rules advisory committee. He has been of tremendous help, bringing rigour to the process and keeping us on the straight and narrow.

It is perhaps unfortunate that Brett has let the cat out of the bag without consulting anyone else. The results as published are correct – however they are not as daft as they may seem. In particular more people voted for 8© than against it, yet the proposition fails. Why? Is this skulduggery, madness or worse?

The outcome is based on David’s advice that

  1. The instructions on the ballot paper about what to vote for if you voted for something else have no significance. If people want to vote illogically or perversely, that is there right, and we are not entitled to second guess them.
  2. The Class Charter requires an absolute majority of votes to pass any motion. Since (with the exception of people whose registration is through the AMYA), there is no incentive to de-register, applying this rule to all registered boats would eventually result in any change in the rules being impossible (more people in the graveyards than out). Members must therefore be taken to mean ‘members who voted’. However, within that group the overall majority rule must apply. Since 91 people voted, in order to pass a motion must get 46 votes, even if more people voted Yes’ than ‘No’. In other words, more than half the people who voted must positively want a change. The last-minute change of 8© from ‘pass’ to ‘fail’ was because nobody noticed until the very last moment that it did not pass the 46 vote hurdle.

I do not think that the result is ideal, particularly on proposition 8. It certainly does not reflect my views or that of many people in the UK. I suspect that the same is true in the USA. It has been suggested to me that this is ridiculous and un-democratic – that proposition 8 is all one thing and that the numbers for each sub-proposition are necessarily diluted by the other three. However, at the end of the day there can be only one outcome of proposition 8. Therefore the position is perfectly logical. People did not want any of the proposed changes enough to overcome those who didn’t want them.

Sorry it’s been a bit traumatic and undoubtedly a 4 BA, stainless steel, countersunk, pan-headed cockup. If anyone wants a head to roll, let it be mine. In any event, my special thanks to David Allsebrook, John Amoroso, Flavio Faloci, Animor Dobrovich and the other people at national level who helped conduct the ballot – not forgetting Bill Hagerup and his technical team (Roger Stollery and Earl Boebert) for their hard work in drafting it.

Finally, my thanks to you, the members, for what has generally be a very well-tempered – if slightly trying – exercise.

And, oh yes, Happy Christmas

:zbeer::zbeer::zbeer::zbeer:

[QUOTE=Angus;48790]

It is perhaps unfortunate that Brett has let the cat out of the bag without consulting anyone else. The results as published are correct – however they are not as daft as they may seem. In particular more people voted for 8© than against it, yet the proposition fails. Why? Is this skulduggery, madness or worse?

QUOTE]

You might want to look at the post before mine…where John let the the cat out…

So, are we still to expect a reformatted version of the Rules page to reflect whatever the new rules will be ?

Cheers,

firstfooty

The edits to the rule are being reviewed for errors. We don’t want any tyops to further alter our revered set of rules. Holiday travel is slowing down communication channels too. Based on our Charter, the new rules will probably be in effect at publication.

I wouldn’t recommend using the new rules for any regatta planned in the next 3 months. This gives skippers time to adjust. It might be a good time to send out an addendum to any Sailing Instructions for upcoming regattas if this a concern.

Oh Brett, that was a small dog. You let out the cat. :stuck_out_tongue:

Gentlemen, the decision is what the decision is, but it would be useful to know when the new rule will be applied, or at least the US Footy management might give some guidance to the club running the US Nationals, and equally to the competitors. I have a new hull sitting on the bench and need to know if the AA rule will remain in force for that event before I can work out my C of G. :confused:

Definitively the AA rule has gone. The effective date is ope to debate. My view is hat it should be in the next 24-6 hours(i.e. as a finally proofread version is available). However, this is purely a pivate opinion and subject to confirmation by my colleagues o the Committee.

Cheers and happy Xmas

A.

Angus, thanks. I agree, lets get it put to bed, though us ‘Yankee’s’ have to wait for the AMYA to approve a rule change to make it class legal. It would be good to have you over here for the Orlando event. decent fares on Globespan out of Glasgow or Belfast, and rumour has it that your health is greatly improved. Can’t promise you a decent pint but I’m buying and it would be good to see you. In all events Merry Chrismas. Paul