Can someone answer this please. I have looked at the Blue Book and the rule doesn’t seem to be covered.
When a boat is given a penalty, and sails on (performing the required penalty turn minutes later) does the boat have any rights?
My understanding is that the boat with the penalty has no rights until after the penalty turn has been completed, but I have been told that the boat only has no rights while performing the turn. In other words can race on and have the same rights as everybody else.
Personally, I think that if this is the case then this boat can/could cause other boat’s to be penalised, and therefore they lose less ground than they should have.
When a boat is given a penalty, and sails on (performing the required penalty turn minutes later) does the boat have any rights?<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
You say a boat is “given” a penalty – are you talking about match racing, or umpired fleet racing? The rules on taking a given penalty differ…
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>My understanding is that the boat with the penalty has no rights until after the penalty turn has been completed, but I have been told that the boat only has no rights while performing the turn.<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
In general, I think you’ve been told correctly.
I am aware of an incident where this case came up. During a heat of the recent Queensland titles, a boat was called for a penalty for a port and starboard early in the first leg. The boat sailed on for the windward mark. I was on port and the boat with the penalty was on starboard, he called me starboard and I replied that you have no rights and it came back that that was only true while the boat was doing the penalty turn.
As Steven said and I agree there needs to be an amendment made so that the boat that has a penalty is “forced” to do the turn early (prior to the next mark of the course and as soon as possible) by making it clear that a boat that has a penalty has no rights until after the penalty is completed.
This doesn’t need to be the case in match racing as this form of sailing is different to fleet racing so the rules should be different as well.
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by Peter _Birch
… there needs to be an amendment made so that the boat that has a penalty is “forced” to do the turn early<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
No amendment needed. The rules already require the turn as soon as possible, promptly…
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>RRS 44.2 720? Turns Penalty
After getting well clear of other boats as soon after the incident as possible, a boat takes a 720? Turns Penalty by promptly making two complete 360? turns (720?) in the same direction, including two tacks and two gybes.<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
Assuming we are talking about non-umpired fleet racing, a boat cannot be “forced” to take a penalty. For one thing, she may disagree that she was at fault.
If you are asking how to deal with a boat which admits breaking a rule but then delays her turn, well, your protest of non-compliance with RRS 44.2 will do the job nicely. You do need to take your protest to the room to make it stick, of course, because the boat cannot do a turn for breaking 44.2. The outcome from the room is either your protest is dismissed or the boat is DSQ’d.
I would say that in your case and in many cases the basic problem is that the fouling competitor did not follow the letter of rule 44.2.
“After getting well clear of other boats and as soon after the incident as possible, a boat takes a 720 degree turns penalty…”
People seem to think that they can carry on racing until just before the next mark. The rule does not say on the same leg of the course; it says as soon as possible. Perhaps if you protested them or at least put pressure on them to more closely follow that part of the rule you could solve the problem of meeting them again - and again, and again? - before they take their turns.
The other thing people seem to have a problem with is that they do their turns right in the middle of the action. It is pretty easy to protest someone who is doing penalty turns and interfering with you, but it is still a nuisance and can lose you places if they bash into you as you sail by. I figure you (after you foul someone) are supposed to promptly sail over to the side out of the way of other boats and make your turns - still making sure you do not foul anyone who has sailed over near you - then get on with racing.
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by s vernon
“After getting well clear of other boats and as soon after the incident as possible, a boat takes a 720 degree turns penalty…”
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
As noted by Scott - this is a good topic for discussion at pre-race skipper’s meeting as a reminder to all - and to re-inforce how “tight” competitors will be held to the rule.
While observing the ODOM Nationals a weekend or so ago - I noticed several times the offending boat doing it’s turns immediately - <u>BUT</u> - directly in the middle of traffic as other boats rounded the weather marks.
I have always felt the pre-race skipper’s meetings are a good place to issue reminders about some of the basic rules… not to discuss or detail - but just a reminder of whay the rule says… and if it is important (such as allowing rounding mark “touches” or not at local events. (it happpens)
So far this thread has focused on the phrase “as soon as possible”. But no one has really answered the rest of your question.
So to answer it: The boat that has committed the foul retains all of his rights under the rules up to the point of actually executing his turn. So if for example the boat is sailing on starboard as he is getting clear of the other cometitors, then port tackers must keep clear of him. While he is executing his turn, he is expected to keep clear of other boats, but is also given some new rights under the rules that prevent other boats from interfering with him while he executes his turn(s) (rule 22.2).
As Lester pointed out, you are not required to take the alternate penalty. You always have the right to dispute the foul in the protest room. So unless you are in an umpired event, you are never “given a penalty” on the water.
It is sometimes the case, that in the heat of the battle, you may think that you were right. Often this results in some discussion after the incident with the other competitor on what he thought happened. Sometimes, it requires some reflection on your part on the events leading up to the foul (what rules are involved? was I given the opportunity to keep clear? etc). Sometimes it can be a few minutes before you can sort it all out in your head and decide that you were in fact wrong. At that point you can decide if you want to take the alternate penalty or not. If you do, you then must get well clear of the other boats and execute your turn.
Very few protest comittees are going to deny you some grace period to settle the issues in your head in cases where there was a lot going on (just off the starting line or crowded buoy rounding for example). So making a subsequent rule 44.2 stick is going to be tricky except in the most blatant cases of stall tactics.
In cases where the situation involved only 2 boats and it is clear that you were wrong (open water port starboards, for example) then you would be expected to execute the turn right away. But keep in mind that even in this situation you are required to get well clear of the other boats before executing the turn(s). Getting well clear may require assessing the situation in terms of all the other boats on the water, their headings and where they might be when you are doing your turns. If there is a lot going on, this may take a few seconds or even minutes to find a hole and do your turn. Again, a generous grace period is often allowed.