steve
i think that you would not get a true result. the hull is a big thing. but the keel was even bigger. aussie II was a lighter boat and much stiffer. because of the wings being lead. you just switch the keels and i think challenge 12 will be much faster . just for the simple reason that the wieght will be lower. and aussie II will be alot slower just because she will be heeling more. what i think you should do , is rip the keel off challenge 12 and put the aussie II keel on both boats. and see what happends. what I would like to see is stars and strips 87 be put into that mix. see what would happen with s @s 87 vs aussie II. and put that off new port. with the 12 meters we had gotten to the piont of designing boats for certian conditions. s@s 87 was designed for australia . i dont think that boat could have won off new port
cougar
I can see the point your making Coug. We are always going to have to front this prob of the 87 boats SHOULD be better than the 82/83 boats. Most designer try to learn from previous designs , whether American or some other country.
Now for some reason early boats can leap across generations , like VIM and INTREPID and someways Courageous. But these are freakish, to say the least.
Steve
I think CAD played a big effect and now allowing anymore freak “boats”
Why would you think that Dan? Doesn’t these designing guys do marine architect. If it was just kicking the computor into life, anyone could do it. But who would want to spend a few Mill and rely on a cad? CADs like designers are not infallible.
Its about my old hobby horse of designing model boats. Only one design can win each race and while there are many races that are in conditions that vary so enormously, I can’t see how you can rely on one option (design) for a boat. at least with a trained designer he generally moves in a series of improvements in his designs or a progression of a design. I would be happy with that situation than having some joker, whacking on with a computor. Some people think these CAD are infaliable but with all computors, you only get out what you put in.These computors don’t come up with original thoughts and this is the problem with them.
Steve
true, but the CAD soft WILL calculate in NO time (simulate) and tell the designer if the boat is a dog or not!
so they can design more boats and chose from a much larger “fleet”…
Why do you think all the AC boat are so costy? materials? BS…time spent on simulation!!!
Steve,
What I mean is how CAD has allowed the designers explore all the possibilities. For example VIM was designed in 1938. All the calculations, drawings etc had to be done by hand, thus I thinks it?s a safe bet that she didn?t go through many design iterations.
In 1967 (Intrepid), and 1974 (Courageous), the designers could possibly get access to a computer to do hydrostatic calculations, though the idea of 3d visualization was a little ways off.
All of the modern designs have been designed with Cad. The design team comes up with a design they like. They click a button, and in less than a second they have all the basics design parameters presented to them. It probably took hours with a slide rule to calculate the same parameters For VIM.
Some of the syndicates design hundreds of possible hulls. Hulls are designed, tested and compared with CFD, and the best attributes are used to generate another generation of possible hulls. This cycle repeats as many times as the design teams thinks they have time for.
It was the same when VIM was designed, it?s just the number of possible designs has increased from a hand full to hundreds, maybe thousands for the 07 cup.
Ah, Wis, which witch is which?
Dan , is that how they do it now? Hundreds of designs? I thought about 5 would have been enough, for most conditions and that was about the traditional number as well.
I knew Lexcon when he was doing Aussie11 and I saw many of the photos of the stuff he was trying with the keels and obviously I didn’t see the eventual one till they took it out of the water at Newport.
All those funny things we saw at Newport with the other crews mucking around with secret keels / rudders were just that, mucking around. Have you seen any of the Australian defender’s keel from 1987? That had a wing keel too but not like A11. It had like winglets on a conventional keel. So what had they really learnt in 4 years?
Steve
To put S@S87 on at Newport would have been overkill. Off Fremantle in Perth WA they experience winds in excess and it is quite different in Rhode Island. And I think it is a bit like talking about oranges and bananas in regards S@S87 and A11, to some extent.
The reason I mentioned VIM and Intrepid was that they were so good in their ERA. Vim particularly for in the 60s&70s it was still performing 30 years after its supposed use by date.
steve
this is the type of work the designers are doing today.
http://www.panix.com/~brosen/splash-1995-brochure/splash-1995-brochure.pdf
I think if you ran vim through one of these programs, you would see why she was so good for so long. Basicaly, the designer hit the nail on head perfectly the first time.
hmmmmmmmmmmm i knew computers would appear here someday, somewhere. you know i remember when you drew a boat. tweaked here , pinched it there, move the keel forward to get more forward boyancy. it was a time for yacth designers not computer geeks that knew how to use a keyboard. ben lexan design aussie II using pencil and paper. and boy did he draw a good one. nzl 82 was done by cad. and BOY was she sweetheart
my 2 cents
cougar
Cougar,
ddidn’t you design your next boat using cad?? :magnify:
Seriusly though, I don’t care much for the computer geek comment. Saying Farr and others who use CAD and other technologies to help them design yachts are computer geeks, and not yacht designers is a ridiculous comment.
While it probably was said in “fun” by Cougar - Dan does make a point … and it isn’t just confined to design technology.
We all make use of the best technology for the specific project. Whether it is CAD software for drawing lines, Velocity prediction for hull shape, load locations for sails, or even the use of modern composities compared to hollowing out a log, sticking a branch in the air with animal skins on it - all technology does is give us yet another tool to build better, faster and stronger (in most cases).
I certainly don’t look unfavorably at those who insist on using strips of balsa to make a plug, when I can do similar from foam. I use glass - others use carbon, some still use wood … and certainly the use of power tools over hand tools shouldn’t cast a negative light (or title) on those who prefer those methods.
The fact that someone decides to use new technology to verify his feelings and theories is what has improved the sport of sailing. Imagine trying to build a high-tech sailboat using handsawn lumber, oak beams and ribs, thick wood planking, and cotton sails. Also throw in hemp rope for lines, wooden blocks and rope rigging, and we have come a long way. Every one of those changes were made by a “geek” perhaps - or an innovator to move away from the word connotation - but with someone wanting to improve on something - it is unfair to call them a “geek”. Was Ben Lexan a “geek” when he came up with the idea of a winged keel? Doubt it - so very unfair to classify many who use computers in that light.
I admit that I have used the term in the past, and until I was the one referred to as a “geek” for my digital photos and video work - I guess it went over my head. When aimed at me, it was a different story, and I kind of resented the title, just because I was using a new technology. Even now I fight the title, as I sit here speaking to my computer, and watching it turn spoken words into printed text. I can certainly speak faster than I can type - so I guess - I am a geek? Or - am I trying new technology to let me process paper and words faster and more efficiently?
geek=
[ol]
[li][list=1][/li][li]A person regarded as foolish, inept, or clumsy.[/li][li] A person who is single-minded or accomplished in scientific or technical pursuits but is felt to be socially inept.[/li][/ol]
[li]A carnival performer whose show consists of bizarre acts, such as biting the head off a live chicken. [/li][/list] :devil1:better being a geek than not knowing how to use a pc correctly:devil1:
Cheers cougar!
lol omg
you know there was a good dicsussion going here. and 1 word changed it. just like i knew it, it was not computers but “geek”
but back to what we us adaults were talking about.
steve did challenge 12 have winglets at one piont during the round robin? i think it did but showed no marked improvement. Canada never had them. not even the reworked version called canada 2.
i think freedom with the low freeboard would have made a difference against the safer aussie II
cougar
then I’ll better let you
adaults
continue
come on Wis we’re just talking , you can join the fray’.
Coug, Challenge didn’t have winglets because he (lexcon) knew that they didn’t do the job. You must remember that these boats go through the water obliquely when beating and winglets cause all sorts of problems and hence the long low wings on A11. I remember one of the photos of Lexcon’s keels that had like triangular “bits” hanging off a torpedo bulb that looked crook but he said they were just trying it out.
A lot of things go to make a top 12metre . I think the American’s put doubt into there campaign by putting more importance to it than it deserved, after all it is just a hunk of lead. Now if it didn’t work, the world would still be laughing about it.
For instance the Australians in 83’ put great store in the fact that Bertrand’s son was always on the tender Blacks Swan when A11 won. Feed that through a computor.
Steve
“12 Meters” is “old thinking” compared to new ideas, new designs and new technology… 12 Meters = :sleep: = so slow most couldn’t get out of their own way. Might just as well race bath tubs… :smile_gre :smile_gre
We now return you to your regularly scheduled program… !
:censored:Canadian technology:censored:
now I just made friends 
Hell guys. You all know about talking on computors, occassionaly the odd word pops up. So what , we’re all shipmates.
Remember when you right into the club race , you were leading. The winch hand in the excitment wrapped the rope around the wrong way, it happens , move on,fellas
steve