Many thanks Bill.
On class M it is permitted a solid mast of max 20 mm. I have seen the rest but is not helping for what I search concerning the hardware construction/design.
Claudio
Claudio -
I know you are looking for information on wing “masts” and sleeved sails as compared to solid wing sails, however, since we have discussed the solid wings in a small context, if anyone is interested, there is excellent discussion going on at Sailing Anarchy. The discussion is based on the solid wings found in the “C” Class catamaran challenge, and it is starting to include a bunch of questions/answers to many things discussed and wondered about.
If anyone is interested in solid wing theory, development and how they work, may I recommend the following link? http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=27245&hl=
If you have any interest in this wing technology, this discussion could help understand it better, and without the need to copy and report here.
[QUOTE=Dick Lemke]Claudio -
If anyone is interested in solid wing theory, development and how they work, may I recommend the following link?
If you have any interest in this wing technology, this discussion could help understand it better [QUOTE]
Dick & Claudio,
That a good one, thanks. There’s also alot of wing talk on this forum devoted to land yacht & iceboat design: http://groups.msn.com/LandsailerandIceboatdesignandconstruction/messages.msnw
A guy named John Eisenlohr started the forum. He’s a cabinet maker in Montana who also designs/builds dirtboats/iceboats.
Bill
read and found interesting but I have not yet found anything on soft sails.
This is the time to adress my best whishes to every body for the upcoming hollydays.
Claudio
Bill -
want to partner and purchase the old Patient Lady “C” Class boat?
Actually am giving it some thought, but I think most of my interested contacts would be back in Michigan, and not sure how many Minnesota guys would want to form an LLC for the purpose of a “C” Class program. They are not the kinds of boats to haul around to local weekend regattas - that’s for sure. Still — fun to dream, right?
Dick,
Give Tony Johnson a call, he’s always looking for some excitement. Plus he lives on Minnetonka, so you could keep it at his place…
Merry Christmas
Bill
Claudio,
Hope you had a good New Year & are not still suffering any consequences from the celebration. Personally, I was in bed before midnight & was only made aware of the time when my teenage daughter & her visiting friends shouted out downstairs.
I got thinking about your quest for a “soft” wing & wondered if the following would work for you. Take a strip of Mylar (polyester film) as long as the sail luff & about 10 cm wide. The Mylar should be fairly stiff (between .1 or .2 mm//4-8 mils), but yet still qualify as “soft” material. This will form the sleeve to wrap around the carbon tube mast, and attached to the sail portion of the rig with double sided tape.
The main idea with this concept is how to give the leading edge a decent airfoil shape:
- Loosely wrap the strip lengthwise around an thin oval or elliptically shaped aluminum extrusion
2)The extuded shape should be mounted horizontally & the 2 long edges of the strip clamped together so as to give a uniform gravity induced pull downward. The weight of the clamps will be critical - Use a heat gun from above to induce a “thermoset” permanent change of shape of the Mylar. This will take some trial & error experimentation to arrive at the correct time/temperature combination for the desired shape.
- The sleeve is wrapped around a round or elliptical carbon mast tube. Added padding (mouleton) material may by needed to induce the desired airfoil shape on the portions fore & aft of the mast
I might try this approach myself. My composite masts work well, but take alot of time to build (about 10 hours for an entire rig) & the material costs aren’t all that cheap either.
Claudio,
Just curious: have you made any progress developing your sleeved wing sail design into a working prototype?
Bill
Not yet Bill , I just received today the Mylar tissu.
Further I was busy in paperwork designing the new Class M Hull adapted to the New Rig.
The starting idea is to transfer, as much as reasonable and respecting the Class M Rules, sail areas to the Main Top were the wind is supposed to be more stable and also try to increase the Sail efficiency (Wingsail). To do that, I decided to put 85% of sail surface in the Main and reducing to 15% the jib. This configuration, of course, push backward the Combined Center of Effort (CE) in relation to the Mast.
To “center” the CE against the CLR (Center of Lateral Resistance), it is therefore necessary to reposition the mast foot far forward compared to a classic M hull/rig arrangement. To accomodate the Rig mass shift , the immersed volume is also shifted forward.
The actual Hull has a rocker max depth positioned on couple 4, instead of ,as usually, between 5 and 6 . The Prismatic Coeficient is fixed at 0.55, while the CB is also 2 mm in front of couple 5 when generally is 3 mm after . The hidden idea is to introduce also a potential planning capacity, but this may be only a dream !!
This new shape was partially suggested by reading the F. Bethwaite book “High performance sailing” about planning hulls.
This is the experiment I intend to poursue. Is time to start cutting metal … see drawings. Comments, suggestions and critics are welcomed of course.
Claudio
Claudio,
Thats a slick looking design. Sounds to me that is your own design, might you be selling the plans? I am looking into building an M soon and that looks like it could be a good candidate. Let me know, my email is millrtme@comcast.net Thanks alot.
Andrew Miller
claudio
wow that looks real good. it sounds like you have done your homework. have you ever read the book" principles of yacth design" that book has alot of real good infromation. although you have to read that damm thing 5 times before you understand most. it did help me alot. from what i see. you dont need alot of help. i would not mind seeing that thing in the water
congrats
cougar
After having made a Main with mine “gadget” that did not corresponded to my wishes , I decided to use it for an experimental work attempting to make a Wing Sail.
The sails is composed with 8 panels each one with his “pocket”
This metod allows the sail to be more flexible when pulling the backstay.
The images show few adjustements.
The results are very promising while waiting to go on the water.
In the first photo you see also in background a part of Nice (France) city in a rare cloudy day.
Claudio
As always Claudio, VERY NICE!! The sectioned sleave will also allow some lateral mast bend without creating a distorted airfoil profile. I’m really looking forward to seeing the “total package”. I’m sure the end result will be very impressive.
This will motivate me to follow thru on my idea for a sleaved wingmast on my landyacht rigs. The composite masts work great, but they are alot of work. My trial Footy rig gives me hope that this concept would be alot easier to build.
There is nevertheless some concern about the eventual effects of air blowing
through the sleeve separation. May be an free overlapping mount ? …why not , whait and see.
This was the sail before decidind to cut out and adds sleeves one by one. Visibles the reasons for having initially rejected the sail .
Is not so easy to do it any how. In practice I first add one sleeve per panel using the luff line as reference and then I cut with the scissors the inner part of the original sail.
The material used for the panels was lighter then the one used for the main - 80g against 60g, panels fixed as usual with dual face adhesive.
This picture shows the normal accepatble sail (8 panels) always made with my “gadget”.
Claudio
Hi Claudio
I have some photos (not that good, sorry!) of the SAILSetc pocket luff sails on a 36" boat from 2004.
http://www.onemetre.net/Reports/36R2004/Guildfd.htm
They were used at the M Worlds recently. Their feature is that the gap is ‘sealed’ by having the pockets overlap each other with an ‘extension’ piece on each side.
Hi Lester
Thanks for the images.
Exactly what I was intendig to do by adding on top of the existing gap a small panel of about 4 cm high covering 50% of each panel.
The best could be obtained by cutting the sail in several panels, my is only 8 at this moment.
Claudio