You cleaned out R-G stock Anders 
looking forward to seeing your progress, now the weather is becoming warmer I’m also getting ready to start laying up two more 120 hulls.
Cheers Alan
Hi
Workshop/shipyard/garage is now equipped with a nice big table, only waiting for the delivery from R&G…
In the meantime i’m thinking about batteries, and would like to know what you use in your boats.
What type? (LiPo Ni-Mh etc)
Voltage?
Capacity? (mAh)
Approx. sail time on one charge?
The next post will include boat building progress, i promise… :lol:
/Anders
Hello
I am now preparing the plug for lamination; I have applied a little filler in some areas, which needed a little bit attention, and sanded it down again. Only problem area now is the front-end deck line, which needs some fine adjustment.
This weekend I will try to fabricate a horizontal edge all around the boat, so I have a surface to seal the vacuum bag against.
Fortunately I kind of ordered some hobby machines, so I am now equipped for any model building task I can think of. The epoxy and CF is now under way, after waiting for the vacuum pump, which was out of stock.
Batteries also ordered, ended up with Li-Fe 6,4V 1500 mAh. Hopefully it will be enough to power the boat for a decent amount of time.
Over and out…
Great workshop space and nice tool purchases!.. I really like that Proxxon gear.
I’m Jealous!..
ditto… on Jim’s comment 
can see many more builds coming from this workshop.
On battery issue, I’ve recently changed from AA to Lipo, prevouisly had bad experience with a Lipo catching fire which was mainly due to my ignorance, have since done little more research and now feel have better handle on Lipo to & confident enough to go back to them.
Attached is a good information package I found somewhere on the web (can’t remember where sorry) makes for good reading and critical information for bunnies like myself on the subject.
I’m using 7.4V 20C 1600 mAh with a voltage regulator for 6 amp-6 volt use on HS-785 HB winch, this 2 cell Lipo weighs 80 grms compared 140 grms for 5 x 1.2 volt AA’s
If found that different winches suck different levels juice, RMG’s & Eurgle’s drain batteries pretty quick, (3-4 hrs) Graupner regatta & analogue Hi-tech servo’s are not so hungry, so far havebeen sailing for 4-5 hours and only use 40% of full charge capicity.
Had not experience with new digital versions.
Cheers Alan
Hi fellows
I had a go with the vacuum pump:confused:
I had the mold of a back-end, which i have used for test purposes before. Tried the same composition of fibres I was planing use for the boat. Starting from the outside of the finished part. 1 x Glass twill 80 g/m2, then 2 x Carbon twill 160 g/m2.
It was with expectations, like children at christmas, that I pulled it out of the mold, but sadly i was a bit disappointed.
The outer surface did not look as I expected, it was not smoth and shiny as the prept mold. It seems the like the outer glass layer had not been wetted out propperly. Also it feels like the structure of the glass had made it’s way to the surface… The carbon can not bee seen through the glass, exept from an area in the wide end of the part… Strange…
Inside looking good with peelply surface
I have attached a bunch of pictures, which propperly explains things better than my explanation.
My own explanition involves temperature and resin amount, maybe a bit of lay-up tecnique.
I was working in my non- heated workshop.Temperature arround 10 deg C. Partall High-temp release wax was also applied at this temperature. Last layer of wax about an hour before lamainating.
I used my new (out of the box) mixing scale from R & G, made a pot of about 80g finished resin… I thought… Found out that the scale needed calibration, so really I have no idea how much resin I made. The finished part came out with with a weight of 20,5 g. After calculationg with the resin consumption from R&G it should have been 28,2g, so propperly i did not have enough!
(funny when you are a rookie…if the scale says 80g, it propperly is 80 grams, no experience to kick in and say “hey, wait a minute”) Well… Now i know to calibrate the scale.
I had some problems during the lay-up, as I kind of ran out of resin so did not apply much resin between 1st&2nd layer and 2nd&3rd layer.
I bellive the right amount of resin will make things alot better, but i’m not sure about the structure of the surface, could it be that the wax had not hardened propperly and the vacuum pushed the fibres into the maybe soft wax, i don’t know…
How bad would it be to apply too much resin? Should the vacuum not push the excess resin out in the absorber?
Any comments are appreciated… I will keep trying untill I get i right.
Regards Anders
Hi Anders, I’ve not experince with vac bagging but two things I can pitch in on:
-
Laminating in 10 degree’s would make your resins have lower than recommended operating temp (what do instructions say?) low flow rate with higher viscosity and resin would not wet out the cloth, as well it it should, not mention longer curing time.
-
The resulting effect you have could be from above mentioned and ora combination of Stravation of resin in the cloth (not enough resin as you suspect) and maybe too much wax on the mould, did you polish the wax to a shine or only wipe it and then add another layer (without polishing between coats)
Can imagine if there is excess wax on the mould that squeeze its way into the fibre under vac pressure, this could look like a possible result you have ? just my 2 cents worth as I’ve said I have no experince just thinking possible cause & effect scenarios.
Heads up mate, it can’t get any worse 
you have no doubt the best system, just need to learn how to use it.
Cheers Alan
Hey Jim, just wanted to let you know that I tried that Pin Hole filler from R&G that you had spotted.
I have been experimenting with hull laminating using latex method which has worked really well. After a frenzy of making a series of hulls (starting a fleet for start-up local club) I took out my first attempt which was very bad lamination (Anders, see even my first experience had bad results :)) to try this new product (Bascofill) out on a hull that had I had prevoiusly binned, being a good test case.
Pictures speak for themselves, the stuff has consisently & feel of wetted grahite paste, found that using cloth to wipe it on that one needs to rub it into the surface to have a good take-up. After leaving for 1 hour just took clean cloth and gently polished the surface where the excess comes off easily.
Polishing it off as as it was, suggested that the recommendation of sealing it with clear varnishing coat is nessacary as it looks like it “does not cure hard” and it might also help darken the filler so it not so obvoius to the naked eye.
It certainly does the job to salvage a bad lamination with pocked marked hull surface and it does “not require tradition filler sanding” (just wipe it off when it’s dry) and with a good painted finish would hide the repair.
Cheers Alan
Hi Alan
I did polish the wax between layers, but maybe the wax also needs to harden before lamination…
I made a new attempt this morning. Since I am the “caretaker” for the building, I have the key to the central heating room . This room has a constant temperature of 24 deg, and low humidity, so should be perfect for lamination.
But the big difference will be the amount of resin used this time. Before the scale was only measuring about 1/6th of actual weight, so properly only used around 10g for the first attempt. (From which 5g went into the brush).
It looks allot better this time… Will be interesting to se the result to morrow. Also the wax was applied yesterday and left to harden in the heating room all night.
Regards Anders
Hi Anders,
I think that you have pretty much solved the issues you have experienced. Not enough resin etc…
From your photo’s, I have the following suggestions.
- The mould surface prep is perfect, and did not contribute to any of your test piece problems. If it had, you would have had a part stuck in the mould!
- Temperature is important, especially for the wet out process. As Alan suggested, it changes the characteristics of the resin dramatically, I’m sure you would agree after using it @ 24 deg.
- When vacuum bagging, the hose connection should be placed “off the job”. I noticed that you placed the hose in the centre of your moulded piece, this is not the best practice. If the breather material does become saturated you pull resin into the vac hose and You don’t want to damage your nice new gear in that way. You had the breather wrapped all the way round the mould, you can place the hose on the reverse side without a problem.
- I would like to see more bag/excess bag used in the mould. Every internal corner should have a fold running along the length of the corner. This is to avoid the bag ‘bridging’. The fold allows the bag to be drawn all the way into the corner, and it then does its job effectively. Relying on the bag to just stretch into the corners is the most common area that can lead to an unsatisfactory result. Just as a note, the reverse is true for outside corners… if you have a fold, you will nearly always get a ‘crease’ in the fibre, so avoid wherever possible.
- I have explained elsewhere the preferred method of lamination that I use in 99% of situations. Wet out your fibre on transparent plastic first… you can always see if the cloth has been evenly wet out by lifting up the plastic with the wet out fibre on top and check the underside for any dry patches and resin content.
Cut through the plastic and fibre to the shape you require and use the plastic to transport the wet out cloth to the mould. Lay it in the mould plastic side up, drape it in and then carefully remove the plastic…
This is a very successful method, with lots of scope for adaption according to the part you are laminating. I am lucky as I get to experiment on a daily basis… I never wet out carbon fibre on the job or in a mould as even resin application is very difficult on uneven surfaces. Makes sense!
I hope my suggestions help in the future.
Alan, it was great to see the results of the pinhole paste… I have found a supplier in Valencia for the R & G products but not had the time to order any. I will get some ASAP!
Any more technical questions… I am happy to help.
Hi guys
Will hold you up on this. Realy appreciate all the inputs from all you guys.
2nd test finished and still room for improvement.
I used plenty of resin this time, and as you can see in the pictures, I found some practical use of the LEGO macots. The Stig is now my “tare weight”. From the resin data sheets I could se that working temperature should be 20-25 degree, and it surely also made a difference compared to 10 degree. For this second test I tried to apply only half a layer of glass to se the difference.
The result is much better than the first test, but the surface is still not what I imagined. It still seems like there is some missing resin in the outer layer. It shows very well on the glass cloth side, the carbon hides it better, but the problem is the same. I thought I used plenty of resin this time, but maybe I didn’t wet it out properly.
I will try Jim’s plastic lay-up method, and make a bigger bag and move the hose connection “out of the job”.
In stead of using plenty of resin I will calculate the needed amount and add 20%.
Is it realistic to achieve a 100% smooth surface, or will there always be some small pinholes here and there?
Tune in for more breaking news in s couple of days…:lol::lol::lol:
Regards Anders
Hi Anders,
There is a huge jump in the quality of the moulding, great work!
From looking at the breather it shows that you could indeed go a bit more on the resin.
I have a theory about the poor surface finish - There are too many holes in your perforated film, sorry to say.
This leads to too much resin being drawn out and leaves the voids in the laminate.
Three ways to get around this,
1 - let the resin cure to the “gel stage” before applying the vacuum to the bag. This will increase the viscosity of the resin making it harder to be absorbed into the breather.
2 - Change the perforated film to a product with less holes.
3 - Reduce the amount of vacuum you are using.
Have a think about it and get back to me…
Cheers,
Jim
Nice work application, but for me there is a missing parameter: the weight !
I mean , the predicted weight and the meausured weight.
If with this working method the weight gain is important, then one could think about the use of gelcoat to kill all the micro holes.
At the end only one goal , light and strong !!
Thanks
ClaudioD
Thanks Jim
I don’t have a film with less holes, so that is not an option at the moment.
I also bought a vacuum meter, so will install this for the 3rd test. Will reduce the suction in the beginning, and maybe turn it up a bit, after a couple of hours if it seems necessary.
I will try to monitor how much resin goes in.
@Claudio: You have a point: My calculated weight of this part is around 28,5g (according to suppliers information for hand lay-up) See bellow finished weights. Don’t know if is correct to assume a little lower weight when using vacuum? But for sure 10g less is too much, which I think support Jim’s theory that too much resin is pulled from the lay-up. For the 2nd test I used plenty of resin.
Test without vacuum 26g (2x200g carbon)
1st vacuum test 21g (1x80g glass + 2 x 160g carbon)
2nd vacuum test 18g (1/2x80g glass + 2 x 160g carbon) <-- I think there was more vacuum here, compared to 1st attempt. (will install the vac-meter to monitor this parameter in the future) Also it is only half a layer of glass.
Have all this week of from work, and really want to make good progress. At the moment it works fine to make a vacuum test in the morning, and spend the rest of the day finishing the plug and the deck mould. Just hope to have figured this vacuum stuff out before I’m ready to make the first boat. But I still have a couple of days of trial before I have a ready mold.
Thanks
/Anders
Progress !!! Anders I only wish to emphasise Jims earlier point (especailly when you come to laminating full mould area) to wet out the cloth on thin “clear plastic sheet” on flat area, then you can have even application of resin spreading & wetting out the fibre, but most important you can easily see dry spots boths sides before transferring it to the mould, this little tip made big difference for me.
Cheers Alan
“The cookie is in the oven”
Layed it up using the plastic method. But have one question. Are you wetting one layer then transferring to the mold, then wet another one and put it in the mold. I wetted out all layers on top of each other on the plastic, and transferred all of them to the mold in one go. I think it worked okay, but I am worried about air bubbles between mold and laminate.
Regarding the vacuum… For the firs attempts i gave it all it could take. meaning -0,95bar. This time I adjusted the pressure to -0,15bar. Seems like it is plenty to do the job.
More news will follow tomorrow, when I pull it from the mould.
I’m off to plug preparation and deck mould building.
Thanks for all your inputs!
/Anders
If the cookie is in the oven …there no opportunity to change the recipe now, let’s wait and see how it comes out :bouncy: my fingers & toes crossed for you
Personally I do mine one layer at a time, mixing seprate resin quantities to give my self more time to work with it, then I can work any air out layer by layer (remember I work without vac system) I use only two layers of 200 gsm with resin pot time of 45 mins.
What’s the arrangment for post curing ? (read the spec sheet) I used packaging box from a new fridge (thick card board) & cut it down to size then brought vairable temp hot air gun, 15 Euro from and stuck digital therometer in the top … worked perfectly and nice hard hull shell.
Without post curing, (room temp) I found albeit the shell is stiff, it is not as hard, I put one shell it in the hot sun and the carbon absorbs lot of temp and could be de-formed with finger pressure, but was easily fixed by blowing hair dryer over the area and forming it back into shape again.
Cheers Alan
I’d say your not far from moulding a hull…
I think you are right, only thing missing… a mould. :lol::lol:
Attached some pictures of the fabric cutting. Worked very well to mask an area around a template. Then cut in the middle of the tape. I left the tape on the fabric also while wetting it out on the plastic. Once wetted I cut it just indide the tape.
Also made som progress on the deck mould, no pic’s unfortunetly, only a picture of the cleaning up.
To morrow I will make the (hopefully) last test laying up one layer at a time, and wait some time to untill applying the vacuum. also turn it up to -0.5. Then if it turns out okay, I have tried the correct working method, and feel comfortable laying up a complete hull.
It’s amazing how much knowledge you can gain in a couple of days, under the guidance of some experienced and friendly persons around the world.
Regards Anders
Hi
Some more news on the 3rd vacuum test… It is alot better this time. There is still some unwetted areas, maybe because I didn’t lay up the layers one by one, so I was not able to check wetting between layers. When comparing to the previous test (the glass side) to the new test there is a huge improvement.
Weight is 25g, not so far from 28,5
Next test (4rd vacuum):
- Clean up mould after 3 mouldings leaving ther marks…
- Lay-up fibre layers one by one, using plastic method…
- Wait a couple of hours before applying vacuum, and turn it up to -0.3bar. (Assuming i have to many holes in my film, I will not go all the way to 0.5-0.6)
Off to the workshop…
/Anders