The two boat in the pics also suffered from Mast/Centerboard-combinations being too much forward -
and the black carbon boat in the pics is a TRIMARINE II from Germany, also very close to the Ghost Train.
We where unable to overcome this general bow down attitude, untill Peter Gernert (Nickname WIESEL) from Germany built a Mini40 tri from three identical Tornado hulls and simply placed the Mast/Centerboard-combinations at 50cm from the stern - 10cm aftward of the original (scale) position.
His boat worked well - and still does!
I just took over his solution to my designs and it worked.
Maybe not the “ideal” solution, but a “working” solution!
Upwind performance, as well as downwind performance - especially on broad reach - improved.
Tacking and turnig abilities in general didn´t suffer as well.
Also on the big “Banque Populaire 5” the mast is about 1/16 of the boatlength behind the middle of the boat.
You also need to consider that our models at this size are sailing through oil in relation to the density of water for the big boats! This is what causes the very different angles of force vectors for big and small boats.
Just like all of you I´m still collecting relevant datas.
That´s all I can say.
Even in today’s beach cat designs, board and mast are much closer to the rear rudders than previously designed. A look at the current state-of-the-art (A Class) shows how close everything is to the stern.
“A” Class - long bows, boards very narrow and close to stern
My 1 Meter tri with rig and boards set closer to stern.
ADDED:
Also note the dates of the posts - one of them reflected upon me, and not being a “member” of that site at that time I was unable to respond. At this point in time ( 4 years later ) I have no wish to dispute or contradict the posts by Ernst - so will leave it well enough alone - but again, point out the referenced thread and posts were done in 2006 !
I did make the changes by myself, the boats original rig position is around 70mm forward from the position I have now. I’m experimenting to see the difference in behavior with the rig moved to the stern.
If it doesn’t work I simply move the mast forward, its a matter of minutes.
Paulin -
the 1 meter was a prototype and had the maximum sail area allowed by MultiONE rules. As I recall - it was around 1100 sq. inches and way too much sail for a first effort. Plans allowed use of two main hulls for a catamaran configuration and of course one main hull and two floats for trimaran. The original set of sails and one set of of floats & hulls were provided to a friend in upper Michigan. He built it and sailed it for a summer, then sold it to a guy from Canada and then I lost track of it. For my time sailing, I did not use a camera as I was concentrating on keeping it right-side-up. I had the prototype set out this summer, but managed to damage my Rx and never got the new 2.4 gHz radio gear changed out. Probably will be a good project for next summer. Also we had one guy in Washington (the state) build to Mini40 PULSE drawings but at one meter and he was quite happy with performance. Unfortunately, multihull interest is pretty low here in U.S, so hard to get excited about a build.
If it is ready for summer, I will get some photos and video.
Well, it seems I missed my deadline with launching the boat. RC is installed the boat is ready to sail, maybe I will make it between the years if I find some free time.
I wish all fellow sailors a Merry Christmas and a successful New Year
Hi all,
finally my Triton made it to the lake last Sunday. A calm day perfect for the first tests.
My Triton sailed in a light breeze no adjustments needed. Now I’m waiting for stronger winds to see how the foils work and will post a report here.
Here is the first picture
I’m working on the paint job, the next pictures will show the finished boat.
My Triton got her final paint and I have been sailing the boat again today - Siri accompanied me today and told me compared to the Ghost Train and the standard version of the Triton it is a totally new boat, there are no more tendencies to pitchpole which are common with the Ghost Train. The foils have helped to keep the bows up while speeding along, but I think the main reason for the change is the stern rig position similar to my MK8.
I will do some sailing without the foils soon to see the difference.
Rolando - very well done, and an enthusiastic “Thumbs Up” on what looks to be a great performer! The yellow stands out very well, and the boat, on it’s lines and at speed look to be near perfect for balance. Do you notice much weather helm with the rig set towards the rear?
Please say hello to Siri from me, and tell him I owe him an email. Plus - I do need to get back to work on my own boats. Lately - between work and helping babysit my youngest granddaughter, the days go by very fast. Best wishes on your build. Enjoy the “RUSH”.
Hi disabled,
thanks for the tip. The aluminum mast bends like hell. I did not want to ruin my carbon mast because of the short mast base on my Triton, I used an aluminunm mast for the tests. I found the best mast position at 510mm from stern. I’m going to incorporate my standard mast tube and use my carbon mast in the future.
Overall weight is about 3kgs (I have not weighted the boat yet)
Is that backstay terminated on the boom? I’m struggling to see how the mast can end up so inverted but am wondering if it’s a perspective issue - is the rig shroudless and bending sideways?
Hi aardvarkissues,
the rig is a shroudless swing rig and the backstay is terminated on the boom. The mast is a temporary aluminum mast because I did not want to cut the mast base of my carbon mast. It bends like hell in all directions.
Now I have found the best mast position and have glued the final mast base into the main hull already and I have changed to my carbon mast.
Actually, when Rolando swaps to the carbon mast that backstay (which I call a frame stay, a backstay attaches to the stern of the boat where as what Rolando has is a line that completes a frame with the mast and the boom) can be used to regulate the fullness or flatness of the sail. I use the frame stay to put a bend in the mast on my swing rigs. My mainsail is cut to fit the average bend (which on an M class mast is about 1-3/4" off straight). Increasing tension on the stay bends the mast further which tends to flatten the sail and move the maximum camber aft. Releasing some tension straightens the mast, increases camber, and moves it closer to the mast. These are only incremental adjustments that move the sail shape about for different conditions.
An advantage of the swing rig is that it maintains the same tuning set from weekend to weekend. Most people sail in seasonal variations of wind patterns, so from the beginning of the sailing season to the end the week to week changes are gradual. In NYC we see stronger winds in the Spring and Fall with progressively lighter winds as summer progresses. Thus, radical changes in sail shape to tune for the conditions is unusual. One might tweak the tension on the mast a couple of times a season.
One important control that a lot of folks leave off their swing rig, particularly one with that is bent under tension for the advantages above, is an adjustable leach line. When greater mast bend is used to flatten the sail the leach of the sail will slacken. When tension on the mast is let up and the mast straightens the leach of the sail tightens. An adjustable leach line will allow one to control the leach tension of the mainsail for optimal twist independently of where the mast bend is set.
My only critique of Roland’s beautiful tri at this juncture is on the new swing rig to shorten the masthead crane so that the frame stay runs roughly parallel to the mainsail’s leach, and use a leach line.
One could proably add a line from the crane to the stern of the center hull - but the crane would then need to be able to rotate - otherwise there is loss of rotation in the swing rig. As set up by Rolando, the entire rig (mast, mainsail boom, jib boom and jibclub) all work as one piece, allowing the entire rig to weathervane (of sorts). Tying the end of the mast crane to the rear deck limits the amount of rig rotation you would get. Those who move to a wing “MAST” want to let it rotate - but then they tighten the side shrouds, forestay and even add a backstay and then wonder why mast rotation is limited (or doesn’t even happen) in some cases. I will defer to Niel regarding the leech line, as my experiences have all used traveller position, boom-end mainsheet attachment, and multiple part sheeting to pull down and control the leech. Allowing the mast to bend forward near the middle will, as noted by Niel, allow some automatic sail camber flattening (to a degree)
My 1 Meter tri with rig and boards set closer to stern.