oh thats a sail!!??
Thought it was something else…very disappointed…I expected better from microsail after all the high-tech talks…I (we) am reading everyday!!!..time to change your sailmaker…even the sails from my Seawind (a non-high tech monohull, with no canting keel, no spin aso…) are way better!
Wis
_/ if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it! _
Funny how good the exact same sail on the exact same rig looks when assembled properly; see the pix on the site and the video. See the pix of the Spinnaker 50 that uses a similar rig …
This is just another case where you simply don’t know what you’re talking about!
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
Dick,
In looking at your picture the obvious thing to try is lowering the luff on the mast. But, I am sure you guys tried that.
So, the next thing that comes to mind is that the mast crane got bent somehow. I’m sure Doug could resolve that for you if you were civil enough to him for 5 minutes to let him help you. Trace the crane on a piece of paper and fax it to him. He can line it up with a new crane and tell you if it is bent.
It is quite clear from the pctures on Doug’s site that the sail did not have that problem when doug owned the boat (you bought the red one used in those photo’s, right?). When you get in off the pontton boat, take a look at this one and you will see that there is quite a bit of tension in the head of the sail:
http://www.microsail.com/pictures/mfoilerf3_14a.jpg
Will Gorgen
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by lorsail
This is just another case where you simply don’t know what you’re talking about!
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
Doug - I’M NOT <u>TALKING</u> at all - photo is worth 1,000 words! I’m letting the photo speak for itself! Readers can determine if this looks good or not and can make their own decisions why it is “short” !
(1)What is wrong with the photo?
(2)Is the Crane too short?
(3)Is the mast too short to allow luff drop per Will’s suggestion?
(4)Why did the crane change dimensions during the shipment?
(5)How would reversing the mast improve/increase the length of the crane?
Very enlightening photos from both Dick and Will. I basically see the same problem in both, though it?s more pronounced in Dicks photo. I was under the understanding that these ?cranes? were made from CF. Don?t think that you can bend CF will.
The close-up is quite good as it shows the inferior quality of the sail manufacturing, not to mention the clunky looking rigging. I wonder if DL has ever seen a Waliki Scalpel? Being that these boats are close in price, it makes a very interesting comparison. When one buys a Scalpel they can see right away that it was worth every penny. If I ever received a boat with a rig and sail that looked like this for that much money, I?d flip out, especially when the Scalpels would be sailing circles around me.
By the way, there is too muck luff curve cut into this sail being that I don?t see a backstay? How dose one bend the mast here? If you bent the mast it would remove that big wrinkle, but in the microsail photo it looks as if the top 2/3 of the main has lost it?s shape already, too flat. Yikes, what a mess! Thanks for bringing this to our attention Will. I had never really looked at that photo before.<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by wgorgen
Dick,
In looking at your picture the obvious thing to try is lowering the luff on the mast. But, I am sure you guys tried that.
So, the next thing that comes to mind is that the mast crane got bent somehow. I’m sure Doug could resolve that for you if you were civil enough to him for 5 minutes to let him help you. Trace the crane on a piece of paper and fax it to him. He can line it up with a new crane and tell you if it is bent.
It is quite clear from the pctures on Doug’s site that the sail did not have that problem when doug owned the boat (you bought the red one used in those photo’s, right?). When you get in off the pontton boat, take a look at this one and you will see that there is quite a bit of tension in the head of the sail:
http://www.microsail.com/pictures/mfoilerf3_14a.jpg
Will Gorgen
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
Will - the boat sailed and was the one in the photo on the website - according to Doug Lord’s post. That cannot be confirmed by me.
(1) How did the length of the tip crane change during shipment?
(2) The tip is carbon or composite material. How can it be bent?
(3) If carbon rod is bent, why didn’t it break?
(4) If mast was longer, luff could be dropped. Mast wasn’t long enough - why?
(5) I have no need to be civil - note date of photo. How long does it take to get replacement part?
(6) How would end-for-ending a mast change the dimension from the mast to the tip of the crane?
(7) Isn’t the dimension from mast to crane tip a fixed dimension?
(8) If the crane is too short, whom do you suppose intercepted the shipment and cut it down - or bent it?
(9) The shipment was made in one of those boxes taht requires two (2) men to carry. Was it poor packaging that broke the tip off and made it too short?
(10) Why would something costing this much result in such crappy quality control?
(11) Doug states it was OK when shipped. Four (4) of us see that is isn’t OK when setting up. Who does one believe?
(12) Those involved in trying to set this up included the owner - Tony Johnson (National CR914 skipper) David Goebel - Multi-boat owner & Spinnaker 50 owner (at the time) and AMYA webmaster - and myself. Was there still a lack of experience or lack of understanding as DOug suggests?
(13) There was a Spinnaker 50 there at the time (Dave Goeble’s) and the tip did not look anything like the F3 tip. Why if they are the same rig, there was a difference in size and ability to function?
(14) Are you now handling Public Relations for Microsail or Doug Lord?
(15) Can I write other questions to your attention and bypass the person at Microsail who can’t/won’t answer them?
… OH, by the way, please make mental note to yourself, … I WAS civil to him from 1999 to 2004 at which time Doug decided to publically accuse me of lack of class support. It was done in public on this forum, and it was malicious - so while I do have an axe to grind until there is a public apology, all that I post are facts, backed up with photos if available - UNLIKE Doug Lord’s posts.
Cheers
Two years ago these questions were answered in detail to you, Chris Traiser and Tony Johnson who you and or David Goebel asked me to communicate with.
There are only three possbilities:
Since the main is reefable it has a removable upper section:
Note that the Wing Tip is solid carbon rod and not bendable.It is the EXACT same Tip shown in the pictures on the website.
As I remember it you were able to fix it because you sailed it on foils; not only that but according to you and David Goebel(A WITNESS) you all became the first sailors EVER to tack an F3 on foils!!!
I can assure you that would NEVER have happened with a rig looking like the picture…
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
Greg, what wrinkle? The only wrinkle in the picture Will posted was a very small one near the throat position and could have been caused by incorrct upper outhaul or not enough luff tension. That picture was taken within 15 minutes of the very first sail of that boat; it is quite possible that I didn’t have it adjusted perfectly. There is NO resemblance between that picture and the one the FOUR guys couldn’t fix unless you’re trying to say the area of the suns glare is a wrinkle which is absurd.
<font color=“red”>edited by Mod…Dan
promo</font id=“red”>
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by lorsail
Two years ago these questions were answered in detail to you, Chris Traiser and Tony Johnson who you and or David Goebel asked me to communicate with.
There are only three possbilities:
Since the main is reefable it has a removable upper section:
Note that the Wing Tip is solid carbon rod and not bendable.It is the EXACT same Tip shown in the pictures on the website.
As I remember it you were able to fix it because you sailed it on foils; not only that but according to you and David Goebel(A WITNESS) you all became the first sailors EVER to tack an F3 on foils!!!
I can assure you that would NEVER have happened with a rig looking like the picture…
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
Correction Doug - It was never fixed ! The only thing we were able to fix, and by accident, was to extend the wands which were too short. As you recall in my email, when I described (AND sent you the series of photos) the boat would get up on foils, and when the foil wand tips weren’t extended far enough, the boat would drop back down from the foiling position on the water. Then rise, then drop down. Only because Dave Goeble tried pulling on the wands did we all discover that they wand “sleeves” were moveable, and able to be adjusted to control height of boat off the surface of the water when on foils. I recall your response email message about the owner being pretty stupid not to have read the instructions! At that time, I could not confirm that any instructions had ever arrived with the shipment.
The rig was NOT reefed ! It was the full sail that came as shipped.
The issue isn’t how high off the deck of the boat the head of the sail is … it is the fore/aft length of the head that is too long for the length of the “crane” that was supplied.
You suggested in a recent post that that was the possible cause of the ill fitting mainsail was the mast section was inverted. When you posted that suggestion as a reply, I assumed you meant this boat - unless of course you told Hoj that was his problem with water leaking into the hulls. I have never, and you have never acknowledged any problem with the Washington boat or the Illinois boat.
If in fact if the wing tip curved rod fit in loosely, it would allow the tip to be further back, than if the rod was centered in the mast. This would have allowed even <u>more</u> distance from mast to end of the crane - not less. In fact, the following photo was also emailed to you to show you that INDEED, the centering “plug” for the wing tip crane WAS installed and in place!
Download Attachment: [ smResize of DCP_1337.JPG](http://www.rcsailing.net/forum1/data/dick lemke/200452817370_smResize of DCP_1337.JPG)
27.91KB
In this photo, looking closely at the very top double draft stripes - the same wrinkle can be detected.
Download Attachment: [ wrinkle.jpg](http://www.rcsailing.net/forum1/data/dick lemke/2004528174542_wrinkle.jpg)
11.65KB
Or from another photo - taken while sailing in Florida - NOT here in Minnesota:
Download Attachment: [ wrinkle1.jpg](http://www.rcsailing.net/forum1/data/dick lemke/2004528174847_wrinkle1.jpg)
10.73KB
Never heard of “sun glare” putting a wrinkle in a sail that was this noticeable at the draft stripe location ! Greg - enough photos at different angles to indicate it is indeed a wrinkle – not glare ! [:D][:D]
As far as tacking the boat, - yes it tacked… but imagine how fast it would be if it came with sails that fit !
This was handled two years ago and there has been no communication from the owner since then case closed<font color=“red”>…</font id=“red”>
<font color=“red”>edited by Mod…Dan</font id=“red”>
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
I hate to help out Microsail and Doug, but it looks by the photo that Dick has posted that the mast crane it self has been fitted back to front. If the end that is at the leech of the main was inserted in the mast it would
(a) increase the height of the mast
(b) allow the top of the main to follow the crane shape better
© give more outhaul movement
I would imagine that this suggestion was tried.
The problem with the sails on the Microsail site is that the luff is to tight, release the luff a bit and the creases will nearly disappear.
I’m not coming to the defence of Doug or Microsail here, just hate to see model boats with sails that look like crap.
Peter
Peter, I had thought the same thing, but in the photos it looks like there is a hook, like on a pen, that hooks it onto the mast. I don’t think it’s reversible. I would imagine that DL would have jumped on this if it was a possibility. Just another way he can point out that the people that spend all their hard earned money on his boats are in fact stupid.
<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Never heard of “sun glare” putting a wrinkle in a sail that was this noticeable at the draft stripe location ! Greg - enough photos at different angles to indicate it is indeed a wrinkle – not glare ! <hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
Yes, I saw this Dick in the other photos, but did not really want to delve into it. I just find all of DL?s answers to all of this mess infantile. What can you expect from someone who really is not involved with any competition nor any of his designs able to compete with anything else out there.
By the way, you can see the same poor sail shape flaws in that video also. But, I?m sure DL will have some type of excuse for this. Maybe a flock of geese were flying overhead and cast shadows on the sail that made it look so bad.
Maybe if DL could just say, hey, your right, I didn?t have that sail set up very well. Or, hey, send that rig back to me, my cost, and I?ll get it squared away for ya. But the response he gives, blaming the buyer for the problems, is just out right disgraceful!
I worked on and solved the wing tip problem two years ago; I blamed the owner for nothing except that if there was a continuing problem he should have contacted me sometime in the last two years!!
Those pictures were taken within 15 min to an hour of the very first time that boat was in the water; there easily could be problems with set up that weren’t addressed.<font color=“red”>**************</font id=“red”>
<font color=“red”>edited by Mod…Dan
promo</font id=“red”>
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
Doug, why can’t you just say what everybody else does. The sails looked ok on land but after the boat went sailing and we had taken the photo, we adjusted the sails.
Whether you did this or not your credibility would certainly be improved.
Look at the post and picture of my boat, I admit that the thing is ugly, it doesn’t bother me and all I got in response was people that wanted the boat ,not critics.
Greg, it made sense that the thing would look better the other way around, as you agree. But if that can’t be done so be it.
Maybe Doug didn’t think to look at this possibility because he was to busy trying to defend his boat design, that he never took the time to try and resolve the problem.
It’s easy to blame some-one else, for your own incompetence. If he was seriously interested in selling these boats the last thing you do is blame the person that gave you the money for inferior equipment or setup instructions.
The first rule of business:-THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT
Peter
dick
The tip is carbon or composite material. How can it be bent?
if made from epoxy the tip could have been heated( left in a hot car under a window) and the tip could have been left in a position so that the angle will change how ever very um likly with a tube but happens a lot whith keel fins down here in aust when left in a hot car
Never hold your farts in.
They travel up your spine, into your brain,
and that’s where sh*+y ideas come from.
Hi Michael -
When I arrived at the sailing site, Dave Goebel was just unloading his covered trailer. As we carried the bits and pieces of the Spinnaker 50 around the house and down to the lake, Chris (the F3 owner) was bringing the F3 from the house (as I recall).
The construction method for the tip probably follows Doug’s instructions elsewhere for building your own curved rod of carbon fibers, laid up inside a polyethelyne tube. After cure the plastic tube is stripped away and the bent/shaped carbon rod is left. (encapsulated recap of Doug’s suggested process).
If you look at the second posted photo, right behind the hand holding the mast, you will see a plug that was part of the tip rod. It was glued in place and was there to center the tip rod in the top of the mast, and also controlled how deep the tip was inserted into the top of the mast. This “plug”, “stopper” or whatever you want to call it would have been out near the end of the crane (rod) if we would have tried to insert it in the opposite direction.
Note also that the Spinnaker 50 (same rig design per Doug) did NOT have this big of a wrinkle at the top - indicating (once again) that the issue was and still is being ignored or explained away. It is simple - there was something wrong with the tip. Four of us tried rearranging and readjusting the thing without success. After the weekend, I sent photos to Doug explaining both the sail/wrinkle problem, as well as the issue of the wands being too short at first and only finding out after sailing the boat, that they could be adjusted.
Doug has already admitted he received messages from me and from Tony Johnson regarding the terrible looking rig/sail combination. In fact in an email to me, he asked that I not post the photo as there was something terribly wrong!
So now it is denial, but at the time he made calls to Tony to explain how to make corrections. What were those instructions?
What are we to believe … the sail/rig was of poor quality control, had a wrinkle 4 experienceed sailors could not correct, is documented in several different photos and different sailing venues (Florida and Minnesota) and that at the time Doug supposedly called to tell how to fix … or Doug’s most recent post where he writes <blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”> <font size=“2”><font color=“red”>“This is just another case where you simply don’t know what you’re talking about!” </font id=“red”></font id=“size2”><hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”> and continues to deny there was a problem.
I guess I just want to know which lie …errrr … post I am to believe? I will chose the former, since it is proven by a variety of photo shots, whereas the latter post (quoted here) is Doug reverting back to his old posts where everyone is wrong, doesn’t understand, etc. etc. because he damn well knows the sail and that specific wonderful, innovative, Wing Tip Rig was a piece of junk!
And the reason behind all of this - to dispute the sugar coated claims being made about how a Wing Tip Rig will aid in tacking… hogwash. To use one of Doug’s sayings, (with all due credit afforded to Doug) - he “Couldn’t be more wrong” and “This is just another case where he simply doesn’t know what he’s talking about!”
Isn’t it amazing that in spite of photos, witnesses, email messages, and even admitted attempts to contact us to explain how to “FIX THE PROBLEM” - Doug continues to deny there is a problem?
I would urge ANYONE currently doing business with Doug to be aware of possibly becoming the next victim of your own stupidity - and if you aren’t doing business I might suggest a serious consideration to keep it that way!
Oh - and if still in doubt - there is also another F3 owner that was very unhappy too, and he was slammed in public by Doug on this forum as well! Let’s not sweep him under the rug either.
As someone from overseas remarked - “this kind of stuff over here would constitute fraud !”
And yet another topic falls to Doug Lord!!
As much as a part of me finds it interesting to see from close up photos how seemingly unsophisticated microsail’s “high technology” equipment appears, once again a thread has turned into an arguement over another of Doug Lord’s obsessions. Now the issue is about “wing tip rigs”. Once again this is a product only being sold by one company with the same tired claims of remarkable developments and no real world sailing experience to back up the claims.
When is this community going to do something to end this?
Lemke: your attempt to distort and rearrange the facts to suit your agenda is preposterus! I fixed this problem ,to the best of my knowledge, two years ago and have not heard a word from the owner, you or anyone else during that time!
The wing tip rig is simple and straight forward and you (or Tony) must have corrected it snce after the photo was taken you sailed the boat on foils! And made the first tack while on foils on an F3.That couldn’t have happened with the tip so poorly assembled…
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
give better instructions and you wont have all these troubles!!!
Anyway, the customer rules! seems like he/she doesnt at microsail!..and I was wondering why you only sold a few boats! ha…not anymore…now its clear…there is NO help/support at all…only thing, “I am right, you are wrong”.
FYI:
http://www.ifccfbi.gov/index.asp
Wis
_/ if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it! _
Wis, the customer has never contacted me! My phone and e-mail are publically available.
The customer is welcome to contact me though I wonder why he would since the problem was supposedly fixed(as far as I know) two years ago.
Lemke is NOT the customer and does not represent the customer in dealings with me.
Lemke is pursuing his own agenda which includes outright lying and distortion of the truth–something you know a lot about!
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing