I should have pointed out some reasons to clarify the proposed rule.
The rule would only require 2 numbers so in your case, haegar, the required numbers would ber “53” I think that would fit on even a “C” rig.
75 mm numbers: This is the height. The numbers can be squished laterally to fit in if necessary. They do have to be easily readable so excessive squishing would not be allowed. They can also be applied on an angle rather than perfectly horizontal.
I think mandatory country would help in the case of duplicate sail; numbers, e.g. GER “153” and USA “153”
I also proposed requiring the logo only on one side. In transparent sails, two logos add clutter and actually make the logo more confusing. We could change that to require two logos if the sails are opaque.
5 Older sails with 10 cm letters would be grandfathered in simply because the rule reads “minimum”
Local clubs can simply overlook the rules for their weekly racing. Ours routinely does that and has allowed entry in races by people who have not yet put their numbers on and/or are waiting to get their numbers. But the rule would provide a firm basis for National and International competitions.
Many sailors in Germany are now using the full height of the mast (110cm) and a square head main which gives a short foot of the sail. This will result in 2 or 3 additional cm less space for sail numbers. Even jibs are become more and more high aspect sails with a reduced foot length. Situation becomes even worse for jibs when using a swing rigg.
btw. in Germany we have registered the sailnumbers 53, 253, 353 and 453 (and it’s only a question of time until the 153 is registered again.). That means mere space for an additional 1 may not be enough. You should also consider this situation.
Joachim, I agree with #6 being the rule today but I think that should change.
The RG65 is new in the US and my club has about 5 of them so there aren’t enough owners for us to see how numbers fit on sails. Even over the entire us, we have less than 100 registered owners. Being that I’m in the US, I cannot see if my suggested rule would work. Perhaps you and others could do some trial fitting of numbers to see if the rule would work. I’m sure we all would appreciate that, even better if you could include pictures.
In the US there are over 1000 registered EC-12’s but we use the last 2 numbers on the sail. I have yet to see a conflict that wasn’t solved by adding a “1” The “1” doesn’t have to be the boat’s actual number. It is simply used to differentiate the two boats.
Though you quote many numbers , “253, 353, 453” my question is are they ever on the same pond in the same competition? If so or that is likely, then we do need to use the entire registration numbers. If not, then two numbers should suffice.
You also say that sails are getting to be more high aspect. Again, we need you and others to do trial fitting numbers to the sails to see if the rule would work.
Bob -
with the exception of our (US) Yahoo Forum, and the ICA Forum, you can do a Google search and see every variety of ideas and numbering being used. I guess I am somewhat surprised that even in Argentina ( sort of the home for one of the class leading designer), Maximo has probably seen the gamut of numbering idea - or lack thereof.
The current rules do say the sails must be numbered and it specifies the sizes and locations. I would guess we have the following choices:
Use the current rule without change or amendment.
Change or amend the rule to allow a variety of numbering possibilities (but what about the ones we don’t think about?)
Remove the rule altogether and leave it up to the owner to assure numbers are visible and readable.
I like number 3 only for the reason the class is supposed to be “developmental” - and in my mind less rules are better than too many.
Bob, I have not yet checked all the race resulty of this year, because we usually have the full number in the sails, but I can remember several cases where at least two boats with same “end number” were partcipating. We have increasing fleet sizes now and a growing exchange between the regions in Germany and more and more guests from the other European countries. So the day will come by sure, where we have 53, 153, 253 and 353 (or something like that) on the water. Btw, if you are using the country ID - it is really small: 40mm - but up to now not mandatory
There is another point, nobody thought about in the past.
Our sailmaterial ist very lightweight and sensitive. Adding an additional number by some sticky material will most probably destroy the sail when you try to remove it. Using some paint - it must be water resistant - requires treatment with solvents afterwards …
Dick, I feel #1 is impossible. It if the full equivalent of requiring that the boats sport a ten foot mast. It is simply impossible and must be totally ignored as is the case currently with sail identification. Rather than do that #3 should be done. However in that case, the total chaos that we now have now would persist. Having sail numbers plastered anywhere makes it harder for race officials to call starts, finishes and marks, as well as for competitors to protest other boats which are fouling them. A standard position and size makes all that easier. Easier translates to races that are more fair.
Joachim, ok maybe there might be many 53’s’ so the full registration number should be required. Many countries are smaller than the US but have a large number of registered boats so it is more likely that they will all be on the same pond on the same day. As I said, the rule I propose could easily be changed to keep the present system of the full registration number on sails. However, if one gets into 4 or even 5 digit registration numbers we’ll again see this problem of fitting numbers onto a sail. Maybe we should use the last 3 digits of the registration number?
In any case we need to see trial fits of numbers in size(s) less that the current 10 cm.
Here everyone uses permanent marker to number sails. It is water resistant. On most materials, permanent marker is easily removable with isopropyl (rubbing) alcohol. I know of no one here who uses vinyl letters on any sail because they mess up sail shape.
Unfortunately if there is any rule change, there will be some who oppose it. That’s human nature. This should have been addressed long ago when the fleets were smaller.
I fully agree. We just try to manage a merge of the internationale rules and the German exeptions in order to have a single set of rules. The only aim is, to make clear to everybody that there is an international rule and some german specialities. We will not change anything - and we have even in this case a lot of discussion …
This is a really long and mentally-exasperating topic, reading the whole thing at once.
I’ve been looking for the current rule on the Footy sail numbers, and have come up enpty. Does anyone know where to find it? I’m currently inclined to make them about 50mm tall (or about 1/4 of the luff), and put one on one on the port side of the jib and another on the starboard side of the main, on the lower 1/4. The country letters will be above the number on the jib, although I don’t plan on going abroad.
Surprised you had trouble, Tom…here you go. Because Footys are not an ISAF class, country insignia are not required…many of us put them on the foot of the sail, though.
Thanks Bill. I first noticed the legal-ese version and got turned off when it didn’t mention what I needed. :disapprov
In regards to all the regatta photos submitted, I thought that it would be good to study and compare photos (with a similar number of boats and a similar distance, point of sail, position on the course[i.e., just before the finish line,] etc.) of the sail numbers on boats sailing in regattas, starting with larger boats like J-class, all the way down to the Footy. People were saying that they could easily see the Footy numbers, but you don’t know the specifics (distance, point of sail, sail material/colour,sunlight, etc.) You gotta eliminate the variables when comparing things like sail numbers. Then you could probably make an educated decision.
Having sailed a footy in an impromptu race on a course better suited to something like a 1M, I do agree that keeping the Footy course closer to the skippers would be a big help to see the numbers. That would be something new for RDs to get used to.
Hi all, please check the rules now, that it has been re checked before the worlds championship that will be held in two more weeks in Argentina.
The factisthat if you set big numbers, remeber that some designs has a very small jib sail, so big numbers wont fit and the rules says that the numbers should be in both, main and jib.
It was a matter of discussion during the last sudamerican championship here in Chile and some major modifications were made about numbers… Please check if you really care.
I saw a mention of a font style to use for the numbers, but lost it. What fonr, or types of font, work well for sail numbers? Or are there different fonts that work well for different size ranges?
Helvetical/Arial recommended as straight stroke letters and are San Serif (no crossing at end of stroke, legs, etc.) They are like this type face. Size/location is dependant on class rules. In absence of class rules, the skipper is responsible to assure the numbers are legible and easy for race committee to read.
The problem is making the numbers that are uniform from boat to boat. Hand drawn numbers are almost always illegible, like those cardboard garage sale signs.
Since highway signs are used widely without much difficulty, except for people who blatantly ignore them, I looked into the font they use for speed limit signs. The actual font is copyrighted, but there is a font called expressway that is practically the same and is a free download: http://www.1001fonts.com/font_details.html?font_id=3076
I would urge everyone to get it on their computer for creating the number templates they use to draw on the sails. Rembering that there is 72 points to 1 inch (25mm,), a 50mm number is 144 points, then add bold-face, print and transfer.
Please keep in mind, you are posting in the RG-65 Class forum topic. I doubt our class numbers/rules are close to those of the Footy class. Also I would hate to see new owners of the RG-65 boats get confused with a discussion of size or type. There is a prescription for sail numbers for the RG-65 Class.
For 2010 the RG-65 Class specifies: “Arial” font, minimum number height of 8 cm and minimum stroke thickness of 8 cm. For nationality letters, minimum height and stroke thickness is 4 cm.
This is the reason I made sure to suggest you check your appropriate class requirements.
Also for RG-65 owners - please note sizes are minimum.
