(off Topic) Moderators?!?!

NEED SOME… First Thank you all for the support. This site has grown and is in need of some good folks who wouldnt mind moderating the boards.

Please Try to Stay away from personal attacks and going off topic.

Please send an email to me if you would like to become a moderator or post below. Thanks…

Thank you again,

I noticed that oft times if an example is used to support a point, it is considered “off topic”. Perhaps your vision of the board needs to be explained.

Is it intended to be a group of guys sitting around a table discussing, agreeing, disagreeing and arguing a point or position (like a yacht club table after a regatta with a couple of beers) - or is it intended to be a structured forum like a court room, where only agenda topics are discussed? If the topic is specific - then are all posts regarding that specific topic put into ONLY that thread - or are they able to posted in many different threads along with a bunch of new ones, just because they “sort of” fit the original topic?

It would be nice to know YOUR thoughts on what you envision.

I agree with Dick, i would like to here your vision chad.


Just get rid of the problem! Stop tying to police this site when it?s just one person that is corrupting it! He was banned from Windpower and that site has really gotten back on track.

I said it before, Doug tends to hijack these discussion boards, and he?s become quite successful at making this one his very own dog and pony show. His post are worthless and have no value any longer. He?s only a dreamer that seems to be very irregular with his medications. He is keeping away the people who really understand this hobby, the ones that actually participate in it, and is unfortunately misrepresenting it to any newcomer to RC sailing.

Just get rid of the problem and stop all of this policing stuff. You really think that it will help?

I wouldent mind moderating the Multione and Technology disscusion areas. I sent you a PM chad, dont know if you got it…

If its not blowing it sucks!

Well, golly gee I guess I should wade in here with reasons FOR a Moderator: 1) just look at the personal and pitiful attack on me by Greg Vasilev!(in tis thread) I’m shocked that someone could be so shallow and sink to such a level! Just look at the readership of my posts Greg: even if you TAKE the AVERaGE readership my posts have over twice the average of the next one up! There is interest in new ideas and new technolgy despite the efforts of some ,like yourself to shut this information out.Dreamer hell: I designed, produced and sold: the first patented RC spinnaker system in history; the first fully submerged altitude controlled hydrofoil RC production multihull in history, the first rc multihull with a spinnaker, the first asymetric spinnaker on a model, the first squaretop rig on any model etc. Not only that up until a couple of months ago I raced my boats every weekend sometimes both days for the last 12 years and before that on and off for 28 years: I’ll bet there are damn few people with my rc racing stick time and nobody with the stick time I have on two different spinnaker boats and several canting keel boats. You should be ashamed of yourself Greg!
2)And then there is Dick Lemke: just look at his posts under the Marblehead thread: personal atack,inuendo half truths and outright false statements all in an effort to shut me up. But thats not all with Mr. Lemke: a few Saturdays ago on or about December 6th he methodically removed posts that had benefitted a lot of people leaving just the responses with no title; why? one can only speculate but apparently he was upset with me and so took it out on the whole forum! Unbelievable: to attacK Chads forum hurting it and others due to a personal hissy fit. And then he comes back as F48 Multihulls and then finally as Dick Lemke -with a mission: to shut me up at all cost!
3) Then there is Roy Langbord: I’d ask you to look at his first post under the Marblehead thread but unfortunately(fortunately)it is no longer there. Roy then posts another of his famous “ass-backwards with the facts” posts saying I was trying to sell something when in fact I recommended AGAINST the technology that was under “discussion”.

In all these cases if you look in an unbiased way you will see that I NEVER have attacked anyone EXCEPT as a response to the unprovoked attack on me such as is described here and generally speaking have responded in an on-topic and non personal manner.
Yes, with these people doing what is there for anyone to see we do need moderators on this forum! The kind of scurillous, personal attacks and insidious use of inuendo to attempt(not succeed) in discrediting new technology will not work!
This forum has made its mark by embracing new technology such as the multiONE class which was born right here.And the maxZ86 Class which while rather specialized has drawn interest from EVERY full size syndicate and many rc guys(just look at the readership numbers!).Not to mention thetechnology of canting keels and the responce to that from people all over the world. Discussion(assuming you are capable of it) should be the gift of this forum ,and it would be, except for a very small group of people ,the majority of them named here, who simply do not want this stuff talked about!!
With fair moderators like Matthew and possibly Will Gorgen this stuff would NOT happen and discussion would be paramount once and for all.And this forum would retain its premier position among RC forums!!!

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

This is a needless reply but I would ask everyone that is participating in this forum to keep their personal attacks etc. to themselves. I have been guilty of it in the past and quite frankly it is a waste of time and a waste of someone else’s time to have to moderate such a forum. This is a great forum and the format is to my mind much more agreeable than others I have seen so lets keep it clean for the New Year. There have been very good posters of this and other forums that have been driven away because of all of the junk regular a few throw out here. Lets clean things up for the new year and stay on topic. If a response doesn’t specifically relate to the topic or the class or the question filter yourself and refrain from posting. If it contains a vituperative remark then can it. I am tired of it and am finding myself reading this for entertainment purposes only in many instances instead of participating. I am not blameless but trying to make a new years resolution to have respect for others no matter how idiotic their remarks or opinions are.

I would like to also wiegh in here. i think the poeple here making these pesronal attacks. should themselves grow up. I was a ative member of a submarine club here in ontario. where we were all friends. and it was fun, then some people got there ,in thier heads that thier opinion was more important that the group. , now this club is falling apart, I have quit, i have lost friends. AND I WILL NOT DO THIS OVER MY LOVE OF SAILING!!!
to all those people attacking doug, i dont know him, i dont care for his canting keels idea, but i will not dismiss him for his knowlege, and for greg v i have seen yoor post and there are very informative. keep up the good work, but dont put down others who might be bringing other idea differnt than your own, if you do not like doug post, dont read them. if you dont like mine , dont read them. i realy like the new class IACC20. they will not appeal to everyone. and i will not push them on anyone, but i will not attack anyone, just because there ideas clash with my own. oh yeah and doug. i have been sailing for over 30 years, and have been sailing rc for over 20 yrs, been designing for over 10 yrs now. and I still dont have it all figure out. lets all try a get along

Cougar it is not the technology that bothers some of us. We don?t want to see newcomers tricked into believing something based on false pretenses, such as unverifiable results.

I will continue to post as I fell it is necessary to make sure no newcomer is misled. I will also continue to post when Doug Lord makes direct or indirect derogatory statements about established development classes because he doesn?t like there rules.


Dan Sherman: “unverifiable results”, “Tricked” : what silly, offensive hogwash!! Would you care to meet in the Pub and debate/discuss, CBTF, Canting Keels, Spinnakers, Hydrofoils-any one or all! Ten to one you will not accept this challenge because you have no experience with these technologies -only in trying to knock them or me down. So come on Oh great Protector of the Newbie-are you up to the challenge!!! Pick the subject and speak your mind!

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

Boy Doug do you not get it!!! A “challenge” to a debate in an imaginary bar on a websight…

The point is what have you proven in the REAL WORLD??? Talk is cheap and you sure do talk a lot. But…

In the real world, you have been challenged by me and others to race boats on real racecourses and have always refused. As Greg V, pointed out here he offered you demonstration rights at East Coast raceweek and you didn’t show. Heck, I even once volunteered to pay your airfare to race your Spinnaker 50 against my Marblehead or your Aeroskiff against a conventional IOM and you wouldn’t show up.

The point everybody has been making is that until you can back-up your claims with real world performances
all you are (to paraphrase Shakespeare) is “full of sound and fury, signifying nothing”.

I see you can?t read Doug, ?Cougar it is not the technology that bothers some of us.?
What part of that statement do you not understand? As for moving it to the pub I don?t think so. I believe this is exactly where it belongs. Because your claims of your boats being the fastest things on the water are at the core of the moderation debate. All the other forums I?m involved in have moderators to keep manufactures from getting out of control, and using the forum as free advertising.

You say I have no experience with CBTF, Canting Keels, Spinnakers, and Hydrofoils, and you are correct. I say you don?t know the first thing about numerical modeling, because if you did you would make grandiose proclamations that you do. I say this because I have a B.S. in computational physics (i.e. numerical modeling).

So lets look at one of you claims about your F100 CBTF.

?The F100 final design is shown to be faster in every condition and by large and consistent margins -some approaching 500 seconds per mile!!! In light and heavy air! In Grahams own words:“Generaly the CBTF concept can provide a fast boat in the Open One Meter Class(F100) at all windspeeds and on all courses compared with a fixed keel version. The fixed keel version of the OOM(F100) is itself much faster than a standard International One Metre.”
Interestingly, Graham Bantock used the services of the Wolfson Unit for Marine Technology and Industrial Aerodynamics to refine the VPP’s capability with regard to the special issues regarding a CBTF model. The Wolfson Unit is the same organization many America’s Cup Syndicates consult with. ?

Now if I was a newbie who didn?t know anything about design that would sound very convincing to me, maybe even enough to buy one.

Since you don?t have an F100 in the water, this claim has to be based on the numerical modeling done by Graham. Graham uses WinDesign as his VPP. VPP?s are an ok design tool but are notoriously inaccurate.

One major flaw to consider is how the sails are modeled in WinDesign. It uses the model presented by Hazen in ?A model of sail Aerodynamics for Diverse Rig Types?. This model was published in 1980 and is very outdated. It neglects any sail area in the roach, and it neglects any aerodynamic interaction between the sails, not to mention it was not intended to be used on sails of this size.

The second major flaw in WinDesign, or any other commercially available VPP for that matter is the model used for hull drag calculations. For this the DSYHS (Delft Systematic Yacht Hull Series) model was used. First off only 39 test models where used to develop the empirical model. From a statistical error point of view 39 hulls is barely adequate enough to represent all the possible different hull forms. Secondly it?s not a continuous model. It has a low Fn formula and a high Fn formula. And again there is the scaling factor, it wasn?t designed for models.

Let?s look at some real world issues now. You love to say that because CBTF works on big boats like Pyewackett, Genuine Risk, and Mari Cha that it will work on models. I love the fact that you always leave out one very important fact. None of these boats race around the cans. I don?t know of a single full sized CBTF boat that does. Let?s not forget that racing around the cans means you don?t always get to chose when to tack.

I can thing of two full sized boats that used twin rudders like CBTF does that didn?t do so hot; Blackaller 1987 and the Swiss 2000.

So let?s review.

  1. there is large room for error in your numerical model,
  2. The technology is yet to be proven in round the can racing.
  3. Certain aspect of the technology has proven to be poor in round the can racing.
  4. No verifiable race results.

And you wonder why people give you a hard time about your posts.

Dan , You left out a major factor in the design equation: Graham Bantock himself and his years of professional design experience. !! Further, as a beginner in the use of these design tools you can’t convince me that you know more than the combination of Graham Bantock and the Wolfson unit!!! Give me a break!!!
And your lack of knowledge about CBTF/canting keels came shining thru AGAIN: first , just for the record Mari Cha is not CBTF; second,Shock 40’s race successfully around the cans all the time!!!So has the 60’ Wild Oats on numerous occaisions; thirdly ,the only part of CBTF that you could possibly point to as not working around the cans in models is the canting keel and that is simply UNTRUE: several of my protoypes including the X boats almost 10 years ago, the Melges 24 model more recently and the aero SKIFF(using the prototype F100 system) this year have all been raced around model courses with zero
problems.Additionally, Grunta’s Ultimate Warrior with a canting keel races standard rc course on a regular basis.
So, again by using half truths ,innuendo and plain false statements you have reduced your case to nothing more than a hodgepodge of meaningless words!
Another Example of FACTUAL MISREPRESENTATION: Blackallers and Swiss 2000 having twin rudders “like CBTF” . Wrong! those boats are fixed keel boats and couldn’t possibly have twin foils(not rudders) like CBTF since for CBTF to work the boat MUST have a canting keel!!!
Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

“Full of sound and fury signifying nothing” Again you’re wrong-refer to my post under “Moth wins Nationals” for details.
As to your"invitation" on the aeroSKIFF it occurred at a time the boat was in no way ready to race-that would be like you extending an invitation to bring the F100CBTF NOW to some venue. When the boat is ready I will or a customer will bring th boat to venues all over the country. We have six F100CBTF’s presold so it shouldn’t be too hard for somebody to hunt you down…
Your invitation to race a Spinnaker 50 against a Marblehead is nonsense since the S50 is a Strict One Design and couldn’t possibly compete with a state of the art Marblehead. But the Spinnaker 50 offers what only one other rc sailboat available to the public does: an effective spinnaker system and close one design spinnaker racing at a price less than most ready to sail Marbleheads.
If the Marblehead class had not banned spinnakers after having them legal for over 50 years it would be interesting to build a competitive Marblehead using a spinnaker system. But that area of development has gone forever in that “development” class…

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>[i]…
So, again by using half truths ,innuendo and plain false statements you have reduced your case to nothing more than a hodgepodge of meaningless words!

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
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Once again, this is how Doug replies to anyone who might have a different opinion then his. I just truly hope that all that visit here don’t let responses like this stop you from posting with the fear that you will be attacked like this. I feel for any newcomer that may have a question but is reluctant to ask because they see that someone here might attack him or her if they state something incorrectly. It seems that Doug feels that if you don?t believe that his patent work, then you need not be here. Talk about hijacking a site.
You really don’t see this Chad? How unfortunate for this site to bear this type of environment.

Fortunately, there are only a small list of people who would create a post like Dan did disparaging a whole concept(CBTF) and Graham Bantock and the Wolfson Unit in particular. It is imperative that experienced people like Dan who make completely false statements or characterizations be answered. I tried my best to answer him with the same “attitude” he projected and with facts. Dan started off his post with: “I see you can’t read ,Doug…”: people that consider that an ok form of discourse should expect to get the same “attitude” in return.

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

Doug. Please point out to the rest of us exactly what part of Dan’s last post is false or contains false statements since you just accused him of lying to us all.

If you actually read his post. He does not disparage CBTF or Graham. What he does do is point out that all the blah you post is still unproven until it gets to the water and wins races. He is merely pointing out good reasons why we should be cautious in believing everything you say.

As someone else who makes a living doing computer modeling and analysis it is very true that there is much inaccuracies and it is no magic crystal ball tool that will predict with 100% accuracies. Anyone with the money can obtain any of these softwares and use them but without a lot of time and experience will produce junk results that are useless.

thank you for backing me up on this ryan. it should also be noted that this is Graham Bantock first CBTF boat.


Ryan and Dan : Regardless of the level of shortcomings in the tools Graham used he consulted with the Wolfson Unit on this design and the application of the software to it-you know that.You also know the impeccable reputation of both Graham and the Wolfson Unit ; both are EXTREMELY EXPERIENCED in the design of MODEL sailboats-far more so than both of you 100 times over-and you know that too. For you to attempt to denigrate their conclusions regarding the F100 CBTF is not a very well thought out course of action…

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

I am amazed! In the couple of days I have viewed this forum a good 80% of what I have read has degenerated into a pissing match.

Doug, (speaking gently, so as not to offend) the answer to every question is not spinnakers, canting keels, or hydrofoils. You sound as though you are intelligent and do have a lot of experience. I guess my only real objection to your posts (except when you become angry) is that you always get back to the same answers. I believe this is what is driving others nuts. I believe that you have value to add to discussions even if they don’t involve some of the developments you love.

Everyone else, (again, speaking gently) even if Doug wants to continue to promote his views, products, technology, whatever, we all gain nothing by reacting in negative and spiteful ways. I’m hoping that we can all provide answers germain to discussions and questions as posted, but if not, blasting someone won’t make anything better.

I am an experienced R/Cer, but have only a few years of reasonably successful local sailboat racing (Sacramento, CA). I have attempted designing and constantly tinker with new ideas. I am here to learn and to assist others with less experience than myself.

Let’s all take a virtual deep breath and start again. This is a great hobby that is not understood by the masses (as with any R/C hobby, most people view them as overpriced toys). We owe it to ourselves to focus on encouraging new hobbiests and presenting this hobby in a positive and fun light to the rest of the world.

I hope that this post can be taken in the helpful and humble tone in which it is intended. I am not intending to bash or negatively criticize anyone (constructive criticism admitted) who has posted to this thread. I’m hoping that we can each look at ourselves and all try to be the first one to “do good” and refrain from attacking others. Tact (much like tacking) can go a long way towards reaching a goal as well as avoiding collisions along the way. Bein polite is never out of fashion, bad form, or the wrong course.

Thank you all for your time.