Mast Position-Keel Stepped

I am just completing my third boat. All are Mistrals with slight mods. The first was stock (as the plans said),the second had added freeboard one the bow (to minimize submarineing-it worked) and with the third made a deck that was narrower midships and wider at the transom.I then spread and squeezed a stock hull to fit. Forgive me[:D]-I like to fiddle with things.(see pic) On each of these boats I deck-stepped the mast with an adjustable mount. Each boat seems happier with the mast in a different position, which means it’s a good thing I made the step adjustable. My question is - when you are building a keel-stepped boat how do you determine mast position? As near as I can see you have to know before the boat ever floats and with my limited building experience it seems like there is a good chance you will get it in the wrong place.

Download Attachment: [ DSCN2081 low res.jpg](http://www.rcsailing.net/forum1/data/Don/2004218143249_DSCN2081 low res.jpg)
32.48KB

Thanks
Don
Vancouver Island

Don, beautiful job! It seems to me that whether it is keel stepped or deck stepped the mast should be adjustable.There’s not much reason to keel step the mast unless you’re going with an unstayed mast or unless you’re trying to achieve specific bend characteristics with a certain mast section.
At any rate, your work looks first class!

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

Doug,

Keel stepping the mast eliminates the compression load on the deck which allows you to eliminate the compression strut and other associated deck re-inforcments. So you might want to do this to reduce the weight of the boat a bit…

Don,

I have seen several keel stepped masts that have several mast positions. In fact in the US1M construction guide, there is a diagram of a combination mast step, keel trunk structure that includes 4 or 5 mast holes (Hal Robinson design). It appears from the diagrams that Hal has several holes through the king plank which line up with the various step positions. Bob Sterne also uses keel stepped masts in his designs…

I imagine you could use tape to cover the un-used holes once you have settled on the optimal mast position for your new boat.

BTW, have you tied using mast rake instead of step position to adjust the tuning of the boat. I have found that small adjustments to the rake has excellent effect on the balance whereas mast step position does not seem to produce much effect. The biggest problem with adjusting the step position is that the sheeting geometry changes each time (the relative position of the fairleads to the attachment points on the boom) which really screws up the sheeting geometry…

  • Will

Will Gorgen

Don -

your question starts to take us towards the “physics” involved in boat design - along with a myrid of other “sciences”.

One must go back to drawings, to determine “where” to place a mast, and that is dependant on sail area and how it is distributed between jib and main. (very basic here guys - don’t want to get too technical.)

When you view the hull, keel and rudder from the side, “somewhere” there is a point of lateral resistance - what keeps boat from sliding sideways. Called the CLR, it is a mathematical point where all the sideways (resistance) forces are located. The designer/architect will then draw a sail plan, and both the jib and main will have a point called center of effort (CE). This is a “point” calculated mathematically, where all the effort is concentrated on the sail plan.

Usually, the designer/architect will locate this CE (center of effort) point slightly to the rear (aft) the center of lateral resistance. (CLR) When the CE is behind the CLR, the boat will tend to exhibit weather helm - meaning it will turn into the wind if no pressure is applied to the tiller/rudder. If the CE is forward of the CLR, the boat will exhibit a tendencey to fall away from the wind (lee helm).

Depending on the CE distance forward or aft of the CLR, determines HOW MUCH weather or lee helm one has.

With current computers, and designs that are known to work, a lot of these calculations are now removed, because after seeing boats for a while, one’s eye can almost tell by experience where the mast should be located. But, remember, if you change the shape or sail area of jib or main (or both) there will be a new CE and the process starts all over again. If you use a known boat, and simply measure back from the bow, you will be reasonably close. Being able to move mast forward or backwards still might be required. If you look at the US1M construction guide, there is a great illustrative mast step made out of multiple tubes in a line that can be attached to the top of your keel. It allows the mast step to be moved forward or back. Looks like a multi-barrel cannon! [:D]

Anyway, as the boat goes through the water, the pitching (hobby-horsing) as bows goes up over waves, or down in a gust also impacts boat handling so keeping weight near center and reducing the pitching also is important.

Finally, if you want to do your own experiments, remove a lot of the variables - use the same sail plan, and transfer the outline to paper. If you make it into a (general) pyramid shape, you can draw lines perpendicular to each of the three sides (where one side is the jib luff, the other side is main leech, and the third side is the combined foot of both main and jib). Where these cross is the approximate (note: APPROXIMATE) Center of Effort (CE) and you can use that to move the rig location and locate from side view of the hull. Granted, in reality, it is a little more complicated, and does involve math and is made easier with computer programs, but this kind of gives you an idea of where and how to locate a mast if it is completely new sail area.

Best to stick with known designs/locations, and only have to tune the rig a minimal amount. But, still a fun thing to do and see how close you are for the first sail.

<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by wgorgen

Doug,

Keel stepping the mast eliminates the compression load on the deck which allows you to eliminate the compression strut and other associated deck re-inforcments. So you might want to do this to reduce the weight of the boat a bit…<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
The main benefit of keel stepping is in rig tuning. A keel-stepped mast has huge advantages over deck step in tuning your main and jib separately. With keel step you can bend the heck out of your mast without altering headstay tension or any jib sail shape. Both can be done completely separately. You can’t do this with deck stepped.
Always go with keel stepped if you have a choice.

Thanks for the responses. I understand the basics as far as locating everthing is concerned. It just seemed that even with all the computers and stuff sailboats are a very inexact science. I just couldn’t imagine how someone could build a boat and know the exact location of the mast ahead of time. I guess with a combination of mast rake and various jib/main adjustments you can balance a boat as long as the mast is close to the right spot. That said I think it would be better to have a little mast adjustment rather than compromise your sail settings.(like I’ve ever had my sails properly adjusted[:-grumpy]) Now on to part two of my query. If the main reason for keel-stepping is rig tuning, which I assume means a mast ram, how do you incorporate a ram with adjustable mast position? Pictures? Links to a diagram? I have ideas but they all involve a sort of upside-down keel trunk hole that would hold a substantial amount of water. I went to a lot of effort to get this as light as I could and carrying 3 or 4 ounces of water seems counter-productive.

Thanks
Don
Vancouver Island

I don’t think you save any weight using a keel steped mast . The compression strut on a deck stepped mast can be smaller than the mast section and your only other concern would be athwartshp deck reinforcng. I don’t think the tuning advantages of a keel stepped mast are significant enough to outweigh the increased complication of having an adjustable mast step on the keel and an adjustable watertite hole thru the deck. A rig can be designed to be deck stepped and work every bit as well as a keel stepped rig.
Class rules could also have a serious bearing on which is better for a particular class but all in all I think deck stepped is the way to go.
Don, the keel trunk idea sounds heavy to me(esp. with the water in it).Maybe you could use some sort of very thin neoprene sealed to a close fitting collar around the mast and to the deck?
Looks to me to be a lot of complication that can be designed out with a deck stepped rig…

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

I used deck stepped masts for years and got dismasted once a year. After I went to a keel stepped mast, no dismastings. The mast tubes can be CF tubes (light) and there are masts so stiff they don’t need shrouds. I just cover the unused tubes with sail tape, and the mast has a CF flare at the deck that retards water from going down the tube being used for the mast step.

Eliminating shrouds is the best reason I’ve heard yet for a keel stepped mast or variation thereof…
For what its worth the first few models I ever built were little 22" main only boats. The mast was stepped in the boom and the pivot for the boom (akin to a “normal” mast) was stepped thru a raised “thwart” on the deck. The deck had negative camber and went from the bow to almost the waterline at the stern. The thwart allowed the rig to be stepped on deck for the convenience, easy adjustablity and watertiteness. It also looked kinda cool-like a scaled down dinghy.

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

Doug, If you have ever used keel stepped mast then you would realize that the benefits of rig tuning are superior to deck stepped. I have used both and in no way can deck stepped compare to keel stepped! You just can?t tune a deck stepped rig near as well as a keel stepped.

Don, worrying about weight from water in your keel stepped mast slot is not something you should be doing. If the winds are high enough that you are getting water in that area, there is no way that a little water in that mast step will hinder you one bit. Most IOMs out there now carry water in these areas with no problems. I know you are using this in a US1M, but still it?s no problem.

Greg, I’ve built a number of keel stepped rc Stars. I still think a deck stepped rig can be equal to or superior…

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by lorsail

Greg, I’ve built a number of keel stepped rc Stars. I still think a deck stepped rig can be equal to or superior…

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>
How?

First,I’m only talking about rigs with shrouds.
The deck stepped rig is simpler to set up construction wise and 100% watertite.
Unless the keel stepped rig is capable of being held up by the structure you use it could damage the deck if a shroud breaks.
A deck stepped mast can be made to rotate freely more easily than a sealed keel stepped mast can.
A deck stepped mast can be raked forward or aft with much less mast movement at deck level making potential jib boom interference less of a concern.On the Star, to rake the rig forward downwind the mast keel had to kick aft as the top of the mast went forward or the jib boom would hit the mast in a gybe.
On some boats a deck stepped mast can be setup(loosened shrouds) in light air to “heel” the rig to leeward helping the sails to work better.(America One)

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

I?m going to have to agree with Greg, keel stepped masts are better. The only catch is you need one like Bantock uses, it allows for some fore and aft mast rake. Your boat has to be well balanced, or have multiple suits of sails. Below is a picture you can kind of see how the mast tube flares at the top. Bantock?s design is kind of a cross bread not deck stepped, but yet not a traditional keel stepped either.

-Dan

<font color=“blue”>Note, Dan’s photo is of keel trunk/mast step combo. It’s shown upside down in this photo. That’s the underside of the deck.

As to a well balanced boat, my ORCO has only one ‘firm’ mast step and only a single jib pivot point on the deck. Just with the tuning of the sails this boat sails perfectly in 2 knots to 25 knots. An amazing tribute to the legendary Swede Johnson I must say.</font id=“blue”>

<font color=“blue”> Sorry Doug, I thought we were talking about rig tuning advantages. If I may, let me comment on these things. </font id=“blue”>

?First,I’m only talking about rigs with shrouds.?
<font color=“blue”>First, the fact that a keel stepped can go shroudles is an advantage, but I know that even if the rig does have shrouds it still can be tuned better then deck stepped. </font id=“blue”>

?Unless the keel stepped rig is capable of being held up by the structure you use it could damage the deck if a shroud breaks.?
<font color=“blue”> This does not quite make sense to me. I have never seen a good keel stepped mast that was so poorly constructed that the deck was in jeopardy of being damaged. This has really nothing to do with tuning though. </font id=“blue”>

?A deck stepped mast can be made to rotate freely more easily than a sealed keel stepped mast can.?
<font color=“blue”> Besides multihulls, I don?t know of any boats that want their mast to rotate. </font id=“blue”>

?A deck stepped mast can be raked forward or aft with much less mast movement at deck level making potential jib boom interference less of a concern. On the Star, to rake the rig forward downwind the mast keel had to kick aft as the top of the mast went forward or the jib boom would hit the mast in a gybe.?
<font color=“blue”>I know that many US1M steps do not permit the actual racking of the mast such as the ORCO and the Venom, both the top of there class. IOMs that use deck stepped mast permit quite a bit of racking with absolutely non of the problems that you mention. It sounds to me that maybe your Star had a design flaw that caused you those problems. </font id=“blue”>

?On some boats a deck stepped mast can be setup(loosened shrouds) in light air to “heel” the rig to leeward helping the sails to work better.(America One)?
<font color=“blue”>This is not a common practice on our small scale boats. I I?m a very good light air sailor and I don?t know that I would ever do this in a race. Not to say it would not work, but ?I?m not so sure.

Anyway, it sounds to me that maybe you have not really had a chance to look at well built keel stepped mast boats such as the Venom, ORCO, Stealth, Errica, and the many others. Even the IOMs like the TS2 that are deck stepped are done so on there skiff type cockpit decks and the mast is then supported by the upper deck. </font id=“blue”>

I was thinking about this in my sleep and more questions popped up. I looked at all the pictures of mast rams that I could find and they seemed to push the mast toward the stern. This means the more ram you use the more backward bend you have and the more fullness you get in the sail.Does this mean that if you use a ram that you start with a fairly flat sail and add ram for light winds and take it out as the wind picks up? Or are some rams designed to push and pull?

Thanks
Don
Vancouver Island

Hey Don,

Mast rams are usually used to counteract the bend induced by the backstay. So you can add a lot of backstay tension which bends the mast and then take out some of that bend with the ram. You can also change the bend characteristic with the ram by straigtening the bottom 1/3 of the mast while keeping some bend in the top. Or, you can add forestay tension with the backstay and then restore a straight mast by ramming.

So you never really add any reverse bend to the mast. You just cancel out the bend induced by the backstay. Thus there are no special requirements on the sails…

  • Will

Will Gorgen

Oh Great![:D] Now I see the possibility of an “S” shaped mast. My sails will never hang right now.[:-banghead]

Thanks
Don
Vancouver Island

Don,

Your using a CF mast aren’t you? If so then do not worry about getting any kind of S shape.

Just what are you thinking about anyway with your setup?

Don, I just now made the connection of who you are…‘thenewguy’. So I know the problem with you getting a CF mast.

I still would like to know what your thinking is on design here.