Manufactuer Posts

As part of a related thread, someone raised the interesting question of what is the appropriate level of posting on an internet message board for someone selling boats and parts.

As a general rule (with one glaring exception) r/c boat designer/manufactuers don’t post at all because they think it appears unseemly.

A very few others will occassionally post simple product availability annoucements and some have also occassionally posted on topics not related to their products.

What do people think is the appropriate behavior for someone who is the business of selling model boats, parts and equipment?

Suprise! I dont like it at all and more importantly it isn’t cool!

As I ponted out on another thread I make a point to promote ideas not specific products with a few exceptions every now and then. I go way out of my way to share knowledge regarding rc spinnakers, CBTF and cantng keels , hydrofoils etc in detail and for free. Numerous people are using information given to them by me at no cost to experiment with or build boats using much of this new technology. Why don’t others post informtion about canting keels, spinnakers or hydrofoils? I think it is because damn few people have any idea what this technology is all about and to the extent that they do are unwilling, for whatever reason, to post about it. There are full size forums that have less detailed and accurate information then is posted here regarding canting keels and CBTF.
I am a shamless promoter of new technology because I think the use of this incredible stuff will allow people to have more fun then they can currently imagine.
Further, I am keenly aware that most of my products are too expensive for the average RC sailor and so I try to help show what is possible if this technology is tackled by individuals doing their own thing INSTEAD of buying from any manufcturer–not many so called manufacturer’s would think it wise to conciously work ,as I have , to help people do on their own what they would otherwise have to pay me for. I’m the only manufacturer anywhere that has made an investment in spinnaker systems to the extent of having a production system available in two classes. And then I turn around -even on my website-and offer it FREE to anyone interested.
I’m one of only three manufactures in the world that have embraced movable ballast technology-whether in canting keels ,on-deck systems etc and what do I do about it? I go on Chads forum and describe in detail how a system works why it works and what it’s like to sail with.
I do this because I am an unabashed tecno evangelist and I think too many other model designers and developers have been too timid(and/or held back by outdated rules) in adopting the new technology. Its the average sailor that is missing out on incredible experiences sailing with a spinnaker,on hydrofoils or sailing a canting keel boat. At present its only me-- not anybody else-- that is spending valuable time making this new technology accesible AT NO COST to the average guy. And I do it because I know how much fun they can have if they give it a shot.

Doug Lord
High Technology Sailing/Racing

i joined this forum a few months ago…at the beginning i had no idea what you were talking about…now because of all of you…i bought some books about sailing (aero hydro dynamics aso…) i am discovering new technologies…and i am so thankfull for it…especially you Doug…you taught me and many others new possibilities about rc sailing…



if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it!

“…r/c boat designer/manufactuers don’t post at all because they think it appears unseemly.”

Have you actually polled dozens of manufacturers on the subject, or do you mean that you want that to be the reason they don’t post?

“What do people think is the appropriate behavior for someone who is the business of selling model boats, parts and equipment?”

Who cares? It is not my job or your job to decide what is an appropriate way for someone to run their business. What is the concern anyway? - are you afraid for the manufacturer (that he could be selling more boats if he handled the forum differently), or are you trying to protect naive sailors from this evil talk?

A final thought. Look at the content and discussion in the 2 most active RC sailing forums. This forum (thanks, Chad!) now has MUCH more thought provoking discussion of RC technology than “that other place”. What is the difference?

Personally, I am disappointed that more boat makers do not post. There have been several threads started where people were asking about how to design their own boats. They were looking for information like how much rocker to design into their boat and what best beam for a boat might be. Since none of us (as far as I know) are boat builders with a proven record of fast designs, none of us are qualified to answer such questions.

I’m sure there are a lot of tricks of the trade for producing fast, nice looking boats that you can only learn after building 10 or 12 boats. I do not have the time to build 10 or 12 boats to learn those tricks and since no one with that experience is here to share with me how to do it, I am sunk.

Specifically (I hate beating around the bush, so I am not going to do it) with regard to Doug’s posts, lets look at the facts. Doug does not produce boats that compete with other builders an any recognized class (yet). His X3 and F100 boats will fit into those class rules, although the F48 is not really a class yet, and the F100 class has a foothold only in europe, I think. The spinnaker 50 is a one design class where he is the only builder, so he is not competing against other builders. Therefore, none of his advertisment posts have anything to do with gaining some sort of competitive edge in the marketplace.

Frankly, it you are going to buy one of Doug’s boats, you are going to buy it because it is a really cool toy - not becuase you are going to win races in a recognized class. For those of us who are intrigued by Doug’s toys, we like to hear how they work. Many of the technologies he is using can be applied to our own boat designs and those of us who are aspiring boat builders like to discuss these ideas.

I have talked at length about some of my ideas for a US1M boat. I intend to build this boat. Does that make me a boat builder and therefore mean that I should refrain from talking about my design ideas here? Others have discussed their techniques for building boat molds. Therefore they intend to make more than one boat. Can we assume that they intend to sell those boats and therefore they should not post here either?

I have sailed full sized boats for almost 30 years. It is standard practice in full sized sailing to invite a sail maker to hop on your boat for a race or even a practice session and have them give you pointers about sail trim and rig setup. You often hear about boat builders sailing in a fleet where they build boats (the Melges boys in the Melges 24 class is a great example). These guys freely share their expertise about building, tuning and sailing boats. Having been the recipient of such knowledege sharing over the years, I have benefitted greatly from their insight. I think it would be a disservice to all of us if these “professionals” kept their expertise to themselves.

The same is true here. We are all benefitted by learning from the pros. There are many examples in our sport of guys willing to share. Bob Sterne puts out his sail tuning video where he gives away many of his go fast secrets. I would love to see him posting here talking about sail design. Does that mean he is advertising for his sails? I don’t think so, but inevitably his posts would include statements like “When I build a sail, I do such and such to get a good shape”. Some would see that as an advertisement. I would see that as sharing valuable information that help me understand my own sails.

I am not sure if anyone is making a living selling RC boat gear. I don’t know if Bob Sterne or Rod Carr make enough money to live on. I tend to doubt it. I think these guys do it because they like to do it and they found a way to make a little money on the side. The fact that most of these guys are willing to share their expertise when asked is great. The fact that Doug is willing to share the technical information he has gained over the years is wonderful. The fact that Doug has some good ideas and is not only willing to try them out himself (and sell them) but also to teach others how to do it benefits us all.

If anyone finds Doug’s posts too self promotional, then there is a simple solution: don’t read anything he has to say. The rest of us are going to continue discussing, debating and developing new ideas. We don’t always agree and we may not always be civil, but we are always willing to share. I see nothing wrong or unseemly about that.

  • Will

Will Gorgen

First, as to the quote about r/c boat manufactuers not posting because they feel it is “unseemly” or better said “inappropriate”–the comment was based on numerous conversations with numerous designers and builders. Look at the most successful names in r/c sailing–Firebrace, Roberts, Elmaleh, Sterne, Robets, Smith, Gibson, Carr, Black…The list goes on and on. None of them are on line.

Second, there is a huge difference between someone in the business of trying to sell boats or parts and someone who is building one offs for their own use.

Third, I am very much concerned that on an unfiltered disucssion board like this one people do get bad information. Loud and persistent voices often times drive out more reasoned and thoughtful discussion. I know a number of people who also don’t post because they think the “technology” discussions here are not very valueable.

Finally, the question still stands are people comfortable with “information” when the source is the seller and the subject is the product they are tyring to sell?

Well said Will. Theres too many full size and model boat designers and buiders kicking around who will ignore you if you ask for their help and advice, and Ive asked a fair number while ive been looking at what courses to take to get into the industry. Doug was one of the few who didn’t, and he hasn’t tried to sell me anything yet, tho in my opinion his designs sell themselves, its just as hsame the rest of the R/C sailing world hasnt caught up yet.

If its not blowing it sucks!

Roy, you also said the Schock 40 had been taken out of production when you were trying to knock canting keels and CBTF in particular(proven wrong by no less then Tom Schock in a personal converation with me); you continued your assault on CBTF after I posted the fact that we had run into a hitch in the F100CBTF design by predicting that Graham would not recommend a CBTF model for production-again proven wrong. Recently you said words to the effect that noboddy you knew in full size sailing would consider using Sailkote on their hulls which narrows the list of who you know somewhat since dozens of full size sailors make a point of doing that.
So my point is what technical discussion were you referring to that was unreliable-what you’ve said???
I think its a damn shame and no badge of honor that the people you mention don’t post on rc sailing forums. I can guarantee you that the masses of lurkers would love to hear their ideas and comments. They must not be as confident in their technology as I am in mine–what could the explanation be? Why would these experts deny a whole group of people access to knowledge and the opportunity to discuss the merits of various ideas?

Doug Lord
High Technology Sailing/Racing

I have heard from others on this forum about Doug helping people and unselfishly giving information to people. I am one of those people. I asked him for some help in CBTF about a year ago and he took large amounts of time to answer me and help me figure things out. He has ansered the questions that I had and in most cases more. Even though I have been bogged down with schoolwork in the past few months I know that I can still email him a quesiton and know that I will have the answer in minutes.

I don’t think that the implication that he is illegaly or misusing this forum to sell his products is a moot point. He has done more on this forum than more people and he has personally taken his time to help many others. He seems like a technology evangilist in the hobby/sport or rcsailing. He knows alot and shares everything he can. So even if there are mentions of his products he goes out of his way to get people started on their own track as best he can.

After battling with some CBTF issues that he has more than helped me with I have a small little unit for CBTF that would be installed into different boats. I had no previouse engineering experience at 16 years but he took copious amounts of time to help me and send me a little piece in the mail so I could better understand.(P.S doug it will be back in the mail soon.)

I am extending my deapest thanks to Doug on everything he has helped me with. He deserves way more credit than some of his naysayers don’t give him.


well, just a few words


Doug is ALWAYS helping people…for free, only because he believes in his technology and he has confidence in it…what s wrong in that??? nothing i guess…this thread will only do one thing…create a barrier…what a shame[:-banghead], classing people like that…basicely, you will have 2 kind of people, for or against Doug!!!
if you are for or against…this is not my problem…i am for him, 'cause again he s helping people out…

other thing…if you dont want to see his post…DONT READ IT!!!

i did read every post on this forum…why?
because i like, no i love sailing…but unforunately i cant sail any real yachts anymore…so i only have rc sailing…but who cares

last but not least…

peace, and go sail you boat[:-angel]

we shouldnt be here…we should be at the lake pond or whatever to SAIL

just my 2 cents(well 2 yen)


if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it!

I’ve thought long and hard how to respond to the post above from Doug Lord.

One thing I know for sure is that people aren’t encouraged to post by the unrelenting attacks that are engendered whenever someone disagrees with Mr. Lord.

It is also absurd to suggest that any of the leading designers of model racing boats, sails and equipment don’t post on the internet because of lack of “confidence”. The validity of their ideas and designs are tested and proven every day in the real world on real racecourses. One possiblity as to why they don’t post is that they spend their days designing and building (lol)…

Matthew: I am very surprised to hear that you have not gotten much positive help from boat designers and builders large or small. I have found that most are very open and willing to help if approached intelligently and respectfully.

As to the critiques I have heard of the “technical discussions” here, essentially people have suggested that they are merely lenghty and often hot headed expositions of unproven ideas that virtually never lead to boats or equipment that are proven out in actual competition.

As to the personal attack claims above, without spending too much time digging up the past, it was the Sailing Anarchy Website that reported that the Shock 40 was out of production and I repeated that information; I certainly did predict that Graham Bantock in the end wouldn’t recommend a CBTF design as a result of his paid work, (guess I can’t predict the future), however we are all still waiting for the appearance of a single CBTF r/c boat and for me and many others the question of the applicability of this technology to r/c sailing is still an open one. As to SailKoat, I said numerous times, don’t listen to me or anyone else, try it on two identical boats and see the results. (I think it won’t make an r/c boat faster as do some very famous sailors, but please, someone prove me wrong).

Lastly, if digging up the past is important to anyone lets not forget that Doug Lord (among other things) called the crew of Allinghi “traitors”, suggested that his own Aeroskiff (now abandonded) would essentially revolutionize model sailing and as recently as a few days ago predicted that the America’s Cup was in trouble because they will not adopt canting keels. I guess none of us are perfect…

In all events, and to return to the original point, if someone thinks it is appropriate for designers and manufactuers to discuss their products on public forums, they should make that view known and encourage more such posts.

i know i am new the this board. so i have to watch myself. first i think this section should me kept to people who are looking for help, and not selling a product. second doug has never tried to sell his product so for those people who are critical of doug , simple dont read his stuff. I for one will read it. because right or wrong, information is all good. and I need all the information I can get. and who better to get it from is the people who do this for a living. I talk with peter richards from climateboatworks all the time and pick his brain. he does not seem to mind it. and why should he, the more people we get sailing the better off we will be. I know i dont have all the answers but i do know some of them
why cant we just have a section devoted to bussiness alone. that way we can go directly to it and se hat is new on the market

Moving on…

No shock (pun intended) that this info was wrong: “…it was the S$%^#$ A%@%#~ Website that reported”… :slight_smile:

<blockquote id=“quote”><font size=“1” face=“Verdana, Arial, Helvetica” id=“quote”>quote:<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”>Originally posted by cougar

i know i am new the this board. so i have to watch myself. …
<hr height=“1” noshade id=“quote”></blockquote id=“quote”></font id=“quote”>

Why would you feel this way Cougar? There is only one person here that I know of that might belittle you because of something you say that might be debatable.
This is my concern, more then be concerned about spam type advertising. My concern is that what a certain individual posts here possibly intimidate some, and how he reacts to other’s opinions. Way would some of the top designers/builder want to post here when they know that they would most likely be slammed by a certain poster. In fact he already has done it even when they don?t post! I know that when I questioned the repeated claims of CBTF 1M being the fastest 1M around without it even being built, I was slammed not only here on this board, but by a p.m. and two emails. This was the only time that I EVER questioned this poster! I used to feel somewhat like his supporters here do now, but after years of the same repetitive stuff, I started to question just what was going on. I think I knew what was going to happen before that post, so I refrained from doing so for several weeks.

This board seems to have been completely hijack by this individual, which I really don’t have a problem with. Maybe Chad’s board can be a place for the dreamers and creators and Windpower can be a refuge for all serious racers from the kind of ?bullying? that happens here. I have no hesitation asking questions and offering answers on Windpower, as here I refrain from offering my personal opinion lately due to the fact that I might become a target.
My only concern is that a new comer will find this site prior to Windpower and possibly come away with the wrong impression on just what the majority of us are doing.

Advertising? Well Doug does have some wonderful boats and some interesting ideas, but I just really don?t want to see then injected into every topic here. It seems that the answer to all questions is to get a spinnaker or CBTF. I still to this day find it a curious situation that he has NEVER designed a boat that can compete in ANY of the 23 ± classes that are out there. On one hand he states ??.They must not be as confident in their technology as I am in mine–?? but he has yet to build a boat that can back this up. I remember asking Doug a few years back if he would be interested in building an IOM for me. Guess what, never came up again. I personally find that designing a faster IOM hull, with ALL the competition out there, is much, much more challenging then adding on a spinnaker or a CBTF, any day! I would be very embarrassed if I were Doug in stating ?..They must not be as confident in their technology as I am in mine–??.

I think there has been a demonstrated interest ,at least on this forum, in areas of new technology based on the readership of some of the technology topics.And I think it is real unfortunate that ,with very few exceptions, none of the other designer/builders post here or on windpower; there are many hungry minds that would benefit from the interchange if there was any.
As to "belittleing " anyone that would never happen from me because I try to interact with people to help them understand sometimes difficult to grasp concepts like collective steering. If ,however, someone uses inuendo ,half truths or downright misinformation I will certainly point it out. Discourse can occur without personally attacking anyone but sometimes gets clouded by people posting “with an attitude” about subjects they don’t understand or are misinformed about. Since I am human sometimes when confronted with that kind of post I respond in kind–I try to avoid it but I’m not perfect. You can reveiw almost any topic and see that in the vast majority of cases I spend time patiently explaining a concept -not attacking anyone.
I think there are a few people that hate any new ideas and consider the mentioning of a new idea or another way of looking at something as a personal attack–that is unfortunate and, I guess, unavoidable.
Thae fact is that I spend a lot of time presenting new ideas IN DETAIL to share with others the rapidly changing face of technology in sailing. I go out of my way to help individuals build their own spinnaker system or canting keel/CBTF system, hydrofoils etc. I make a point of sharing technical ideas and the rationale behind them and I answer many questions as completely as possible–and I enjoy seeing the enthusiastic response some have when something they thought was too complex suddenly becomes clear.
On this forum I have only posted promotional or semi promotional stuff about the America One , X3 and to some extent the F100CBTF. The F100 CBTF information is about a boat I have yet to build and was shared in detail from the begining because I knew there were a lot of people who would be interested in the design process as well as the process of bringing such a boat to the market. I paid real serious money for Grahams work on the F100CBTF yet I have shared every detail down to the prismatic coeficient(under "Hull Shape posted by Don in General Discussion) of the hull with those on this forum. I’ve done the same with spinnakers, hydrofoils and with CBTF theory and practice.And I shamelessly promote this technology by trying to make it understandable to a wider range of rc sailors because I know how their sailing experience could be heightened with any or all of this new technology. I’m not shy about pointing out why this technology is not more widely available in the rc world-outdated rules: spinnaker rules written by those who have never used an rc spinnaker, no movable ballast rules etc).
If more expert’s and designers would share half as much as I have there would be an incredible resource available for people to learn from. But most of them don’t post and that is a big loss for the average rc sailor…

Doug Lord
High Technology Sailing/Racing

Following on from Dick’s idea once you get your F100 sailing it might be a good idea to loan one or two out to some of the top IOM sailors to have a bash with in the F100 class, if they’re seen to win sailing your boats…

If its not blowing it sucks!