Displacement Hulls

JayDee

Yes, waterline length has a lot to do with boat speed. Yur example of half a knot represents a 20% speed difference for a boat that is sailing 2.5 knots, so that is a pretty extreme example. By cmparison, the IACC designers will spend $1 million for a design idea that is good for 0.2 knots for a boat with a theoretical hull speed of 11.5 knots, so there you are talking about less than 2% increase.

For a one meter boat, a 2% speed increase is .05 knots. To get that kind of speed increase from just waterline length, you need to increase the length of the boat by about 1.5 inches.

That is why the hull length is so tightly regulated.

But getting more to your real question does it matter how you displace the water. Yes, of course it does! Take a look at the picture of my fairwind again. You can see that the displacement wave is quite short. The bow wave crest is bck pretty far from the bow and the stern wave crest is forward pretty far from the stern. Thus, the effective length of the displacement wave for that boat is much shorter than the waterline length of the boat. Thus this boat is speed limited to well below it’s theoretical speed by that very short wave. THis is because the displacement distribution of the boat is concentrated near the keel. The keel itself is perhaps an inch thick t its thickest point. This causes a lot of displacement in that area of the boat. Thus, this is a very inefficient design.

A higher performance displacement hull would have the bow wave much closer to the bow and the stern wave riding right at the stern. In fact the overhangs on the classic boats (Js and old meter boats) were designed to do exactly this and move the waves further apart as the boat heeled.

Several factors in hull design will influence this effect. Rcker and prismatic coefficient are two obvious ones. But there are other tricks designers paly with the shape of the hull to smooth out the displacement and move the waves toward the ends of the boat.

In aircraft design in the 1960s there was a theory known as area ruling which creasted the characteristic “coke bottle” fusalage shapes. The idea here was that the cross sectional area of the fusalage as a function of length should follow a nice smooth parabolic curve. They had discovered that sharp increases in the cross sectional area at any point along the fusalage would cause shock waves to form at speeds near the speed of sound. By using the area rule, they could delay the onset of those shocks until closer to Mach 1.

Bow and stern waves on a sailboat are very similar to shock waves on an aircraft, so in a simplistic way, the area rule applies to hull design as well. There are some big differences between a free surface wave and a supersonic shock wave, but there are also some important parallels.

One important design element that we have not really addressed in this thread is total displacement. If you can reduce the total displacement of the boat, you can reduce the size of these waves and make it easier for the hull to plane. In full size boats (and model boats to a certain degree) designers talk about the sail area to displacement ratio. That ratio measures the available power (sail area) relative to the wave making resistance (displacement). Planing hulls like dinghies, scows and skiffs have very high SA/Disp ratios. Thus, they create only small waves and have plenty of power to push through them and get planing. With a displacement boat, the displacement is neded to create righting moment so you cannot go as light as a dinghy or skiff. But you can cheat that equation as well by simply moving the ballast lower (increasing the righting moment arm length).

This is why model boat do so well at exceeding their teoretical hull speed. THe keels on model boats are generally much deeper on a scale basis than their full sized cousins. This allows them to create more ighting moment frm less ballast and therefore reduce their displacement and increase their sail area to displacement ratios. Thus high performance Model boats (IOM, US1M, 36/600, M, etc.) create very small waves and have plenty of power to push through those waves. This is why most of those designs can exceed their theoretical hull speeds quite regularly.

  • Will

Will Gorgen

Will,
Thank you for a real good explanation of what is a H*ll of a subject.
As much black art and experience, as science.
So with a one metre, a really fast hull maybe only 0.1% faster than another boat, by reason of better design, yet be beaten easily by a better skipper, race tactics, a wind shift or a couple of stray waves!!.

My own experience of racing is of some skippers who are almost unbeatable, unless they get tangled up with another boat during a race - -they WIN!!, they can win with other boats than their own too.
I have tried “shadowing” these skippers, could keep up with them no problem, but they always slip away, usually in the pack, rounding the Buoys, and win!!.
If they can see a boat keeping up, they will position their boat to block yours and they are gone.

I think the gains from technology are far out weighed by better sailors, otherwise the most expensive, newest boat in the pack, would win.
John.

I agree John,

From what I have seen in the US1M class which is still fairly limited, there are some differences in boat design which can lead to speed differences arond the course, but who wins or looses is still a matter of how well the boat is driven and not the bot design.

Having said that, I have seen some home built boats that are real dogs. I have even seen some comercial designs that have a hard time keeping up with the fastest boats no matter who is driving. But once you get into the popular designs the speed differences are quite small. And I thik the amount that you could improve over the best designs is probably really small…

  • will

Will Gorgen

jay dee
what you described . by you saying you follow the top skippers. but they slip away. this is a good practice. the skip[er that i have seen. they make make mistakes. like you said get tangled up . sometimes. yet they win. the people i have learn from make these mistakes. but they a minor. if you follow the top skipper. you will pick up his habits. and soon you will be in the top 5. i started do this. and soon became on of the best skipper in my area. i HAVE followed the best. and have beaten the best. but my me looking at what they are doing. i have notice that they seldom get into a postion where they are in trouble. the hull meen alot. and it is a black art. some of what i know i learn from friends(over beer) and some from what i have learn form my black book. this is a book where i note down what each boat hull. i designed does. then at the end of the summer . i make a story on the hull. and find out what was its best pionts and worse. after a month of looking over this data. i start my next boat. what i have learn is that for an IOM the best beam ave. is 7 inch. the lighter wieght help to accelerate. but is also to quick to slow down. like in the middle of tacks. BUT a heavy boat like to swing though these tacks, but is slow to manuver? now this could be due to the fact that there is more hull in the water. the skiff type of hull sits (not in the water) but rather on top of it. this couls be where is spins on a dime. i have had my hands on a v3. and i dont like it.( my personal choice. i like the guy who has it) . i perfer a deeper boat. but this again come into what the skiiper is used too.
my 2 cent form a crummy designer
cougar
p.s. i ike this discussion

Cougar,
Hey! lets have less of the Crummy!.
You are right, the top skips do seem to keep out of trouble, until they get walloped by a boat they are PASSING!.
Following them is not at all easy, they know you are after them and do all they can to block you.
I have Trophys and Medals, all for third place, when sailing against these two fellows!, never beat them.
My Schooner has won more awards than I have!, just by sailing and looking good!!.
Thats Life !.
John.

Here is another picture of the bow and stern waves - this time from a US1M “Mistral” design.

Download Attachment: wavespeed.JPG
43.64KB

If you compare this picture to the one of my Fairwind, you will see that the waves are much closer to the ends of the boat. This is a much more efficient design from the standpoint of wavemaking.

  • Will

Will Gorgen

Will, the Mistral picture seems to show a classic displacement hull waveform for a boat going at nearly maximum speed.
The Fairwind picture seems to me to show a boat heeled too far making excessive leeway at about half maximum speed. The action at the keel seems to me the greatest indication of excessive leeway.
If you were there was that true of the Fairwind?

Doug Lord
–High Technology Sailing/Racing

Hey Doug,

You are right about the Mistral - it was pretty much at full speed when I snapped that picture.

The Fairwind picture was snapped during a practice session, and it was a few years ago, so I cannot recall the exact details regarding speed, etc. But I can say that the boat was not making excessive leeway however.

The wave you see in that picture is fairly common for the Fairwind. I use this as an example of a poor design as far as wavemaking goes. The boat is not well optimized as far as hull shape. And the low draft keel does cause the boat to heel quite a bit with even relatively modest winds.

If you wanted to design a high performance model boat, you would not choose the Fairwind as your prototype…

  • Will

Will Gorgen

Wil,
Just as a point of referance. Here is a photo of a few Seawinds. http://groups.msn.com/TRWILLIAMS/shoebox.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=237
What can you read about these hulls? Just interested.

Tom
Seawind #80

<font color=“red”>EDIT:Added additional link:</font id=“red”>
http://groups.msn.com/TRWILLIAMS/shoebox.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=242

Tom,

Seawind #80 is producing a sizable bow and stern wave. Those waves are fairly close to the bow and stern of the boat. The Seawind is 1M long, so I would guess that it has about the same hull speed as other well designed one meter boats. However, I would say that those waves appear to be a bit bigger (considering the wind and amount of boat heel) than the US1M waves in my previous picture. So I would guess that the Seawind would not be able to plane as early as the US1M if at all…

Good design, but not great (from this standpoint - please don’t jump on me, Wis…).

  • Will

Will Gorgen

Will…I never had my SW planning…and I have wind!!so I guess you are right!

Thanks for the comment!

Wis

if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it!

http://wismerhell.esmartdesign.com/index.htm

Wil,
Thanks for your reply. I would love to see a picture of a US1M planning. I am not quite sure how to spot it.
So that leads me to my next question. How does the lenght and placement of the keel and placement of the mast affect the overall speed and planning?

Tom
Seawind #80

Well Tom,

You are beginning to stretch my knowlege in this area…

What I do know (from Marchaj) is that planing is loosely related to the SA/Displacement ratio: essentially the power available (sail area) compared to the wavemaking resistance which is loosely related to total displacement.

I have not read anything about how keel placement or rig placement might affect the onset of planing.

As fas as spotting a boat planing… Well, there is a large grey region of speeds between the hull speed limit and full on firehose planing. The technical speed where any given boat is planing is difficult to determine. But as some point, the boat begins to climb out of the wave trough. In the US1Ms you will frequently see bursts of speed on the run where a boat will clearly pop out of its wave trough and scoot out. Whether this is truely planing I’m not sure. Judging by the wake of the boat, it is clearly in excess of the hull speed…

  • Will

Will Gorgen

i was just wondering, IF it was possible to come up with a IOM desing that can plane in lite winds. and would you want that. the ts2 is quite wide and therfore sit on the water rather than in it? if you look at boat 90 . in the seawind picture. you can see what i was talking about the 3 forms of restance. you can see the bow wave. the quaterwave, and the stern wake
great pictures . for looking at waterline
way to go and keep up the good work
kudos tom
cougar

Interesting sail trim on two of them as well. Hard to tell if a shadow - or if the main is being backwinded by the jib directly behind the mast.

my boat will get into step ocassionally on a downwind run with favorable winds and on a beam reaching wind. the waves also play a role, and on some instances it will even surf down. exciting to watch but i can not maintain it more than several meters, maybe more practice needed
ed
http://groups.msn.com/RCSailing/allicanafford.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=6188
http://groups.msn.com/RCSailing/allicanafford.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=6205
http://groups.msn.com/RCSailing/allicanafford.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=6215

another shot shows the boat nearing hull vmax envelope, it almost broached, but i managed to throttle down
http://groups.msn.com/RCSailing/allicanafford.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=6137

Ed…a bit off topic but…you have some special recommendation if sailing in the sea?..too impatient…i am off to the Japan Sea

Again sorry for being off topic!

Wis

if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it!

http://wismerhell.esmartdesign.com/index.htm

your eminence,
make sure all electronics are well protected. trojan and hermes works well. rinse the boat well with fresh water after and i mean like hose down everthing.then i rinse the inside of the hull with fresh water too! then i spray some industrial strenght contact cleaner on all connectors. a bit cumbersome but better that than the electronics conking out while out at sea.
ed

ed
those look like great shots. i wished my boat could do that. is it a ts 2 or a v3?
cougar
wis wished he could do that

Ed,
I am GREEN with envy!!!.
What a location to sail in,I would enjoy sailing a RAFT there!.
Were you standing in the water or in a boat?, looks shallow, judging by the shadows under the boat.
I have never sailed my Schooner in the Sea, some thing I want to do, but all our beaches near here are VERY shallow for 100s of yards out, with very quick Tides - -not safe to go out too far.
My boat needs at least 26 inches of water to sail in, so I need a jetty or an outcrop to launch from - -still looking!.
Very good photos too!, thanks for sharing them.
John.
www.john-dowd.co.uk