A word of caution to all of you guys - as you recall, previous practices of private emails to other subscribers became the reason (well, one of them) for being banned.
I will swear to uphold your ability to publish your thoughts and opinions here on the forum, but taking it as personal emails to individuals has been proved NOT to be tolerated here.
I’m not the moderator here - just consider me as your conscience. Post your contradictions and disagreements - but do it in public - not as an email or private message to one individual. Again, just a word of caution.
Ahhh - I may beg to differ with you Angus - especially since you may not have the experience here on this Board. There was no intent to make it a legalistic post - only a fact so everyone new to this board is aware of past issues that had to be remedied in a drastic way. Hate to head down that path again.
My point is that before we see it degenerate further - it is an opportunity from experience to at least make new subscribers aware of previous issues and how they were dealt with by the moderators or owner of this particular discussion board. Often times in our zeal to make a point or convince others a change is indeed needed, the concept of being a “gentleman” may be overlooked - and there is a possibility of rather harsh penalty.
Disagreements are always appropriate - doing it in a positive way is preferred.
I’d like to try to put this thread back on a more positive track.
Regardless of the origin of the box rule concept, it has shown itself to be quite workable. We know it has intrigued some talented designers. The latest, I’ve heard from a trusted source, is Swede Johnson. He’s working on a Footy that will weigh 3 pounds and carry 300 sq. inches of sail! I can’t wait to see how that one performs, as it’s very different from the current crop. We also know that the Footy class is growing nicely under the current rule. We also know that the performance of the boats has improved significantly relative to the original Bobabout, despite the restrictions of the rule. While some Footys are small boats for kids, I can assure you that mine are serious racers that are surprising people who see them sail. I personally feel good about the rule that allows both.
Much of the discussion about the impact of the rule’s restrictions is hypothetical. While rule changes can be nominated based on opinions, I’d very much like to see those who feel overly restricted, build boats to their idea of what the rule should be and do some comparison sailing against their (or their friends) class-legal versions. If they then feel that the difference warrants a rule change, they can submit their proposal for vote. Surely the evidence gathered in testing would add credibility to their proposals and make acceptance more likely.
Finally, I’d like to thank Brett (our Footy God) for the incredible contributions he makes to the class. He and I talk about Footys almost daily. We constantly reevaluate our positions, and sometimes have doubts or second-guess ourselves based on the criticism that sometimes comes out in these forums. But to date we remain confident, pleased, and proud of the way the class is developing…thanks to all of you Footy builders.
The future of 12 inch yachts weighs heavy upon my shoulders I have to say.
I am constantly 2nd guessing the rules we have set down.I have to,I really want to do the best possible for this size of yacht.
Bill is right,The rule as written right now seems to be working,despite what Niel or anyone else says.There can be no perfect rule that is perfect for everybody,witness the large ammount of 1 metre type classes for example,each has there own merits for different people.
For those who genuinely belive that myself and the other rule makers have done 12 inch yachts a disservice then I respectfully say go start your own class.
We have worked very hard and thought very hard about these problems.
Niels suggestions…up until yesterday,were taken seriously and researched.
Look at the battery thread,I have gone out of my way to research battery weights and technology trends after Niel suggested that AA batteries would be no more.
This class is growing very fast. Most seem to like the rules as written.look deeper into the box and you can see some very differcult design challenges,or for those who are perhaps less knowlegable and boat can be built cheaply and comply with mearsurment very easily in a very black and white manner.
Sometimes of course I wonder if we could have done things better and 20/20 hindsight is a beautiful thing,but again I repeat,the builders and sailors are getting behind the rule by building and sailing these models.
We are finding out ways to make these boats faster everyday and our current boats are way better than our first ones.I am confident that within the framework of the rules there lies a pretty nice well mannered and fast 12 inch yacht.Of course they could be faster…but does it really matter? by defination floating on water and using wind for power is 1000 year old technology,if speed is your only criteria then you are in the wrong game.
Every rating rule in existence has some sort of limits,even your beloved multis Dick!
So to all the knockers and detracters either go play in another class if you don’t like this one that much,or start your own,maybe it will be better than this one.Thats fine by me if it is.I don’t claim to know it all ,not by a long stretch.
If you only see a few problems with the rule then go about changing them in the proper manner,there is a system in place just for this.
I have most likely reached the point after this episode that I will not discuss the class rules etc on a public forum again.I guess we all wonder why guys like Graham Bantock,Roger Stollery and there like don’t participate in disccusions on the internet( I don’t compare myself to them for a second)
I think I am beginning to understand why.
There’s always some one who wants to change the rules to suit themselves. They can’t leave well enough alone something that works.
Right now, if the Footy rules work for the vast majority, that’s what counts. Let the class grow in size and popularity with what we have.
I believe the Footy class is ment to be a fun, economical to build sailboat that anyone can enjoy. And for the folks who like to tinker with the Footy within the rules, experimentation is endless…he or she that comes up with a Footy design that handles all conditions without compromise will be the King or Queen of the class. Ahhh, the challenge…
It’s fun to see the different designs being built…I have two interesting designs I came up with that I can’t wait to start on. Have to finish my Razors first.
I have been reading quietly up until now and taking note… I now have two thoughts;
firstly: The posting of a personal email into a public forum is totally unacceptable and in my opinion has done the perpetrator great discredit. The content becomes completely irrelavent to me because of the method. Frankly I consider that action somewhat more objectionable than a private abusive email, but of course both should be unacceptable.
second: For those of us dedicating much time and effort to producing designs and kits to meet the current Footy Rule, stability of that rule is an issue. If such a basic dimension as the rule box width is perceived as being up for grabs then the only option for a kit maker (large or small) is to stop and wait for said rule to become more stable.
I do not believe from what I have read that such a change is likely but if more manufacturers are to be tempted in to this class they do need to see at least the chance of a reasonable long term return for their efforts. Clearly designs will be outdated for speed and that is acceptable but they should not be outdated by a major rule change once the rule has been published.
From the point of view of ScaleSailing.com I have jumped in early to help to support this class and marketed a sound ‘middle of the road’ Footy, the Kittiwake. I do not pretend that it is the fastest boat out there but it will get more Footy sailors on the water with a reliable and fun to sail yacht. My future designs will attempt to improve on performance and speed of course… so long as I know where I am heading and that the goal posts will not be moved mid-production! Admittedly if this happenned I would only lose ‘hundreds’ rather than ‘thousands’ of dollars (if I ignore development time) but I would prefer not to see that happen
I am of course just another model builder who happens to get a great deal of pleasure from producing kits to help others into my chosen hobby, and this is just my opinion.
I acknowledge that - but my personal feeling it is the least “restrictive” of any current rule out there, the easiest to understand and provides a boat of a size that impresses those who see them - and those who sail them. For the F-48, size (48" x 48"), number of hulls (two or more) and sail area (1400 sq. inches) are the limit - there are no other rules that will influence development or lack there of.
Weight, draft, number of radio channels, size of additional rigs, moveable ballast, type of winches/servos, foils, sail materials, soft or hard sails, foam, glass Kevlar or carbon materials, are all “open” and can be modified, improved, developed, or … scrapped. This class is there to provide those wanting to “tinker” a place to go with absolutely no restrictive rules. (at least none that we can think of) - and changes to our rules are not subject to a whim and are set for a time length to allow builder/designers the oppootunity to actually work out the kinks without a rule change taking place in only a year. We are also protecting the rules with the percentage requirement of owners - not voters making the change.
Discussions among owner/builders have only touched on removing the “beam limit” and allowing unlimited spinnaker area for racing - instead of only for speed trials. Future rule votes by owners will tell if these are desired by many, or only a few.
And by the way - a multihulled “FOOTY” will fit the F-48 Class, since all of our dimensions are “MAXIMUMS”. Looking forward to seeing some of the new 800 mm multihulls competing.
what’s “freaking” scary, is the potential/possibility of a FOOTY staying upright in heavy winds, while the big boats spend their time in the “stable” (upside down) position. You have to finish to win, and I could imagine one of these rascals pulling the David and Goliath act.
Graham,
I and the other rule makers are only to well aware of yours and others situation in the production of kits for this class.
Rest assured any rule changes would be carefully considered and all possible effects of said changes thought about very carefully.
I must say at this point any changes would appear unlikely in the short to medium term.The rule makers are pleased with the development of the class since AMYA sanctioned the class not long ago.If it aint broke ,don’t fix it comes to mind.
So develop away Graham,the class needs kit builders.
