Building Swing Rigs

Tomo, West System is expensive but that is because it is considered the best epoxy for boat building and the strongest for the weight. MAS and System 3 are a bit cheaper (but not much) are also good epoxies for boatbuilding, but they seem more viscous. The general use epoxies that one can buy from hobby or home centers are crap, heavy, probably past prime, and not structurally sound.

I use #105 for wood but I also use their Pro Set #125 for carbon fiber laminations and fittings. The #125 is a post cured resin, probably like the type that Nigel uses for his boats. West System is available in quart size containers (probably more than you would need for a hundred balsa Footies) that bring down the cost. The #105 is best dispensed from mini-pumps (really required for the proper mix but once you have them they can be used again in your next can).

While we are on the subject of resins I would like to say that I don’t believe that polyester resin has any place in boatbuilding, that is unless you are in production and want to have colorful gel-coats. Polyester is pretty nasty stuff, acts unpredictably, is extremely exothermic (gets real hot real fast), is heavy, and becomes brittle when aged or exposed to UV. It is cheap and readily available but has a short shelf life, which makes it not so cheap. I don’t think that anyone should use this stuff, particularly first time builders, it is a good way to screw up a lot of careful work quickly.

niel I have the pumps on my mine… and it is nice, but one pump of each is still way to much epoxy. I need to figure out a way to reduce my usage either using the small mixing cups or some different diamater circles for the amount of epoxy I need.

I do mix mine up in silicone cupcake molds. when the epoxy is dry invert the silicone and bam…the cups is clean ready to go again…

Marc, you need to do some planning so that you have enough projects for the epoxy you mix. Parallel projects are one way to go.

Although it is not recommended I use 1/2 pumps for most of my Footy work. I use slit tubing for stops. You need to measure the halfway point of each pump’s travel and then cut a length of plastic tubing (like the tubing that comes with the pump set) to size. Split the tubes down one side and you can pop them into place when you need a smaller batch. Using them for sequential batches will lead to the hardener not wanting to dispense a full measure so you may have to “pump air” a few times to get it to work properly.

good idea with the “stops” I have heard of people using their computer to draw circles on paper and have two circle one for the resin and one for the hardener and sized approtiately. one circle 5x larger than the other (in the case of west) the “fill the the circles” and mix…

Marc - Easier said than done!

2 words - medical syringes!!! the ratio of West Systems with standard and slow hardener is 5:1. So 5 cc resin and 1 cc hardener or 10 and 2 work great. I put 1 or 2 pumps of resin and hardener into separate medicine cups from LHS or Tower hobby ( or local pharmacy - they charge about $1 for a tube of 100). Then draw up resin in a 5 or 10 cc syringe and hardener in 1cc or 3cc syringe. shoot into a third med cup to mix Voile! perfect mixing. No needles involved so no legal issues. Extra unused material lasts several weeks in the med cups especially if covered. Clean the syringes with isopropyl alcohol after use then soap and water.

Nate

Great Idea…I have a diabetic dog and I’m going through insulin syringes 2 a day… I’ll have to try it out, hopefully the west product isn’t too thick for the small needle orifices

What kind of shelf life does the West System epoxy have? I seem to recall using some many years ago, and not being happy with it. I remember thinking it was ridiculously overpriced, and that I had reliability problems with the pumps (which were not inexpensive either). I decided at the time to just use the “SIG” brand (from Montezuma, Iowa) of model airplane epoxy (2:1 mix). I find the 2:1 mix to be easier to use than the other ratios, and it has always done a great job for me, although it is hard to find if there are no good hobby dealers nearby. It does have a habit of the resin part getting cloudy and coagulating into a grainy mass when it gets old, but I found that putting the bottle out in the sun (on a clear day) for a few hours returns it back to it’s original viscosity. I recently found an almost full large bottle of it in the garage that must be about 10 years old, and after experimenting with a couple of test mixes, I have determined that it works fine. I have used other brands of epoxy from the hobby shop that use a 1:1 ratio mix, and I agree that they don’t seem to penetrate into the wood nearly as well.

Regards,
Bill Nielsen
Oakland Park (Ft. Lauderdale), FL USA
AMYA #0835

my current can of resin and hardener are more than a year old…fwiw…and they stay in my dungeon in the basement… unless I’m working on a mast then I’ll move to the garage. but no real temp extremes…

I used the west with the slow cure hardener 105/206 on my last mast for the soling

joining two halves of solid bamboo. pretty good stuff, plus it gives you a fair amount of handling time to get things just right. before it starts to set up.

Marc

lets switch the epoxy discussion to a fresh thread

OK…

On the Hoyt rig, he’s got full-length battens. How would you do that on a model yacht sail? rigid carbon strips maybe?
thx

for batten go to office depot or and buy some plastic report covers… not too thick, easy to cut, and they are nice and flat and you can get them in a variety of thickness’ and colors

you can put the adhesive of choice on them and then cut and stick…

I do have some thin carbon strips, that I ordered by mistake, but the clear report covers always works best, at least for me…

Better yet,

When you buy stuff in the welded plastic boxes, saved the large, flat panels for battens or hatch covers or making templates for gaskets, etc.

I have tried that for battens, but invariably the plastic still had a tendency to curl… maybe it was the way it was vaccum formed, or pressed…but the plastic sheet covers since they are made flat…seem to always stay flat…

I think that battens on this size sail are overkill and if you use them to force camber into the sail then they will not “pop” from one tack to the other in the light stuff. Nothing worse for speed sailing than to have your sail’s curve reversed.

With the Hoyt rig you control both the luff and the leach with the boom and gaff so battens are redundant and add weight aloft.

well I finished a second modified Hoyt rig (MH Rig) I’ll call it the Code Zero MH …252 sqin of sail. towering 24 inches above the deck.

basically I took a flat panel victoria main and chopped 12" off the top…sorry about the color…I like to be seen

in the luff pocket is a 2mm carbon rod. that goes through the gaff and boom. so I get a good leading edge without having to put a lot of tension in the rig.

On my storm rig I used 1 mm woven carbon strips on the leading and trailing edge’s again to maintaining to the good clean edge without a lot of tension and to minimize the sail bagging in the high winds the 12" rig was designed for.

I was not able to get the end plate the way I wanted it. so for now, its been put on the back burner…here are a few pic.

I got the 507 repaired and we have a test-n-tune event this weekend so it will see some time on the water in preparation for orlando… so I have 2 boats, and 4 rigs… and I still have not decided on FIC or FAC rules for my boat…yet another variable…

Marc,

Great insight! That’s a fantastic solution to the “offset” Hoyt Rig issues I had last year!
Dang, now I have to build another one!

-John W.

Marc
As I said before you have done a very good job here - you solved the off set and now i am keen to hear how the V-12 and the 507 go - please keep us posted

I can see my Hoyt being modified as well at this rate
Rgds
AndyT

the v-12 sailed really well with the 12" b rig. and I broke the 507 before I could even try… and I know I won’t get home early enough this week after work to test em out at home (still too dark). so it will have to wait until this sunday…I will do some follow up on sunday for sure…It will be a footy day for me. in prep for NCR. even if it snows (it is forcasted…)

Marc ~ how does the 252 sq ins compare to the standard V-12 bermudian rig on size?
Rgds
AndyT