best glass to use

Rcsailing.net New Boat Owners
21

Michaelb-

I have used System 3, WEST and RAKA’s blend. I find it much easier to carry a homemade carry box around the house, workshop, yard and boat with a can of resin and 2 cans of hardener - (fast/slow) than to worry about a set of scales. WEST can be seen to change color as hardener (gold) is mixed with the clear resin, so mixing complete is easy. I also use a “double-circle” mixing guide for very small amounts which would stick to the sides of a mixing cup.

They also formulate a clear finish resin, and their G-5 product which allows molds to be fabricated and used within 30 minutes. Nice for small parts, etc.

Warmed WEST will thin and penetrate - while “thick” can also be used. A little thinner - though not recommended - works great to coat wood without being too thick to add weight.

SYSTEM 3 is my next choice, as they have a good product that has also been well received by the general boat building public. Problem is that here in the upper mid-west of USA, you must mail order it, while WEST can be found in many local retail outlets and marinas/dealers.

RAKA is a product we tried last fall for a strip canoe built through our Parks & Rec. program. It was first time I tried it, and it worked OK - but again, the cost and issues of shipping a product from Florida up here. Not sure about down there, but here in the US, many resins and most hardeners can/are considered as hazardous chemicals, and transportation laws step in and create pricing issues. (Same for MEK hardeners for polyester resins). I found the RAKA to be easy to squeegee and wet out the glass, although I think the glass itself was a bit of a problem. I didn’t buy the stuff - so not sure - but it seemed it wasn’t cleaned and wanted to reject resin in areas. Perhaps it had hand oil in spots - don’t know - was just there for our use but supplied by Parks.

As noted, with WEST being available many places, it is easy to hop in car and drive to a retail outlet to pick up a can of resin or hardener. As you tended to infer, you do get used to a product and are reluctant to change to something new. Even cost considerations may not be enough to warrant a change.

To be fair, while I support the WEST products, it is fair to know that I grew up less than 30 minutes from their shop, worked with them on some projects and also sailed against them in dinghy and multihull events. Jan, Meade and JR Watson have provided me with much free but very useful technical advice, but I also count them as great sailing friends and as noted by some of the designs and builds from their shop, they do know what they are doing and have 35 years of experience behind them. If interested, you should visit their site and read their background and the projects they have been involved in.

An interesting observation however - doesn’t it seem odd, that one would (possibly) need to purchase 100 different kinds of resin/hardener formulations from your favorite company, and I can usually get by with a can of resin and two different speed hardeners for everything I ever wanted to build - big boats or little? Kind of like my multi-functional favorite tool - a screwdriver - that can be used for so many different things ! [:D] Sometimes simple “IS” better ! [;)]

Thanks for the views however - and I’ll let you know how the next RAKA project goes when I get to pick the cloth.

22

As an after thought, I referred to a “double-circle” method of mixing very small amounts that migh be an issue if using a scale and cup, since some could cling to cup sides. This method will work unless your formulation is thin like water. The post below is specific to WEST products and their 5:1 ratio mix. Basically they are saying that the product area in such thin small amounts can be mixed by the same 5:1 ratio of area instead of volume.

23

dont have to like to add fillers and pouders to my epoxy it takes time and it is a health risk. yes you can where a mask and glasses and all that other stuff but the next day when your not you and kick up a little pile and its in your eyes or in you lungs the in the eyes is very pain full with Q-cell belive me just my thoughts have a look at spsystems web url and have a look at what there resins can do and if your one west and additives can do all of the stuff tey cay idd be very supprised. the url is www.spsystems.com just so you dont have to look it up

Never hold your farts in.
They travel up your spine, into your brain,
and that’s where sh*+y ideas come from.

24

west sysyems is a multi purpose resin. not “a true” laminating resin. it’s been tried and tested for years and years and when it first came out it was all anyone ever used…and was the best when it came out. The idea is fantastic you have one resin for glueing timber, laminating, making fairing mix etc. there isn’t much you cant do with it. which is why it is so popular. that and bieng able to buy it at your local hardware. but all the additives they put in it that make it so versatile also make it an inferior laminating epoxy (compared to TRUE laminating epoxy)
If i had to glue two pieces of timber together and had west on the bench and a laminating epoxy i’d go staight for the west… because i would have to add thickeners to the laminating resin.
But for any kind of laminating i wouldnt use west (though i used to about 7 years ago) I’d go straight for the stuff that is made for that job and that job only.
another thing to ponder - if you are making a part with carbon (or any cloth for that matter)than the reason for using that cloth is it’s lighter weight for it’s stiffnes no? than one would want to use a stiff resin also and not a more rubbery resin (ie. west) check out the comparisons of west to laminating epoxys. and because of the thick nature of west (and similar non laminating resins) you end up depositing more resin than you would with a laminating resin making … you got it a heavier part. if your going to use a light stiff cloth why put a thick rubbery resin into it?
Of all the professional boat builders i know not one of them including myself even own one single tin. West Systems is almost a household name now but the reason for this is it’s a fail safe multipurpose resin that can be found on every second corner. Which does make it easier to find and use. But i cant remember the last time i saw a tin in our supplier who only supply to professionals.

my appologys to all die hard west systems fans.

25

I would agree with Sodium because I know people who know him really well and say he is a really nice guy. This also means I would agree with Michael as well. In my opinion, west is alright for some things but not all things because it is heavier than a lot of other resins. I know some people who are boat builders, one of whom builds International 14’ Skiffs, and none of them use West System.

I see said the blind man to the crippled noodist who put his hands & promtly walked away

26

Here is another perspective:

Melges boatworks was building the venerable E-Scow in 2 different varieties a few years back. One variety used Epoxy and higher grade fiberglass. The other variety used Vinylester resin and lower grade fiberglass.

The epoxy boat was stiffer right out of the box, but the brittleness of the epoxy relative to the vinylester resin caused the epoxy boat to develop microcracks which would slowly cause the epoxy layup to breakdown which would lead to waterlogging and delamination after 4 or 5 years of hard sailing.

The top skippers in the class all wanted the epoxy boats and considered it “normal” to buy a new $30,000 boat every 3 years or so.

Menwhile, the guys that bought the “lower perfromance” option boat which was made with the vinylester resin are still able to race their boats competitively - even boats that are going on 10 or 15 years old now. Those boats may last another 10 or 15 years without getting soft. The Vinylester resin is more rubbery than the epoxy which allows the fibers to stress without overstressing the resin matrix and causing any cracks. The Fibers carry the load and strain uinder the load as they are desinged to. The difference is that the resin is able to flex with the fibers. It is ductile under those levels of strain rather than brittle which allows the resin to flex with the fibers without cracking.

In out little boats, the layups we use are much stronger relative to the loading thatn what the full size boats use. The E-scows that I talk about use a layup schedule (from the outer skin working in) of gelcoat, 1 layer of 2 oz cloth, 2 layers of 6 oz cloth, 3/4 clegucell core and 3 layers of 6 oz cloth. If we wanted to replicate this layup schedule for our boats (in terms of stress levels), we would end up with a layup schedule of .1 oz cloth, 0.030" foam core and another layer of .1 oz cloth. This is substantially less strong then anything I have heard people using. 1 layer of 6 oz carbon is about 60 times stronger and 35 times stiffer (in panel bending) than the layup I just described. So, it is hard to say that we use carbon for its strength.

By the same token, we do not need to use nearly as much re-inforcing bulkheads, stringers, ribs, keelsons and so on as these full size boats. So if you factored in all the panel stiffness that those elements add to the full size boats, we are probably pretty clost with just our single ply of 6 oz carbon.

But now we put our little boats on the pond and ram each other (sometimes at high speed) and expect our boats to survive. Have you ever seen what happens when 2 full sized boats meet at full speed head on? It is ugly! So that is the main reason why we need a stronger layup (on a relative basis) compared to full sized boats.

But do we want the stiffness of the Epoxy, or would we be better off with a softer, ore rubbery matrix material? If we want the hull of our boat to be able to flex when another boat rams us, then we might be better off with a more rubbery epoxy like west or even a polyester or vinylester resin.

This is the first time I have actually crunched these numbers and thought about it in this way, but I am coming to the conclusion that we may be worse off with a higher grade epoxy that is really designed for engineering layups (layups that are highly stressed and need to generate strong interlaminar sheer stresses in order to load share between the layers) and might be better off with a lower grade of epoxy that is more compliant. We don’t really use the resin for the purpose it was designed for. We are not imparting strong interlaminar shear forces under working load. The only reason we need so much stregth in our boats is because we like to bash into each other (these are toys after all) so what we really need is a layup that is tolerant of this kind of abuse…

  • Will

Will Gorgen

27

Sodium - and others,

Since I’m not an owner, or employee, I am not going to lose sleep over the issue, as in the end, you will select what “you” want to use, and each of the rest of us will select our products that we feel comfortable with using.

I took some time to research the product, and will concede the “primary” role of WEST was it’s development to use as a glue or sealer for wood composite construction. Back when formulated, it also was a method to handle blistering and cracking of glass reinforced boats built using polyester resins. It certainly has proven itself, for underwater blister repair. Whether it can/should be used for fabric composite construction is a question that seems to have been proven, but each builder will evetually have to come to their own conclusions.

Here is a bit of additional “history” and if you take the time to read with an “honest” and open mind, I’m sure you will have to agree it isn’t <u>“crap”</u> and it certainly <u>“IS”</u> a professional product. Please pay particular attention to the last portion about Wind Turbine development.

[i]<font color=“purple”>"Other important boats built by Gougeon Brothers include Accolade, a Bruce Kirby-designed 30’ half-ton monohull in 1974; Hotflash, a Gary Mull-designed 32’ half-ton monohull in 1976; Phil Weld’s Rogue Wave, a Dick Newick-designed 60’ Trimaran, in 1977; and Slingshot, a Georg Thomas-designed 60-foot proa in 1978. Slingshot recorded the second fastest time at the World Speed Trials in 1979. Gougeon Brothers developed a production version of the Olympic Class Tornado catamaran, which they built in 1975 and 1976. A Gougeon-built Tornado was sailed to win a Silver Medal in the 1976 Olympics. Patient Lady, a C-Class catamaran built by Gougeon Brothers, won the 1977 Little America’s Cup. Adrenalin, a Formula 40 Trimaran, was built for Bill Piper of Ossineke, Michigan in 1987. This boat amazed the sailboat racing world by taking an extremely close second place during her first regatta in the Formula 40 Grand Prix circuit in Brest, France, in April of 1988. But later Adrenalin was legislated out of contention when the Formula 40 class rules were changed.

The manufacturing experience and research and development associated with the use of wood/epoxy composites in the construction of wind-turbine blades has also largely influenced our company. In 1979, the Gougeons’ reputation for excellence and innovation in wood/epoxy composite construction captured the attention of NASA researchers who contacted the company to build experimental wind turbine blades for use on wind energy machines. The success of the wood/epoxy blades led to multi-million dollar contracts with General Electric, Westinghouse, and Bendix. 4,300 blades, from 10 to 70 feet long, were produced between 1979 and 1993. The wind turbine business allowed the company to fund a extensive research program, the results of which have been instrumental in developing extremely light weight structures, both on and off the water. Data collected was also used to improve the performance of WEST SYSTEM Brand epoxy and to test new construction methods."</font id=“purple”>[/i]

Maybe it could be argued that it shouldn’t be used at all with fabrics and composities, but then again that seems to be a leap in the opposite direction. As noted, in the end, there are enough users that still use and prefer the stuff, and new users will simply have to make up their own minds. But it also, is a viable product answer to which the question was originally asked - right?

28

lol boy everybody has an opinion
omg. the fibreglass i use is common everyday polyester resin. now that was what i used and you know what. it worked. the water was kept out and the boat floats. now i use epoxy.(MGS) now why do i use this. i find it is stronger that the polyester and lighter. but both work. the diffence between mgs and west is just the application. i found out that mgs is used by bombadier in making aircraft parts and is used is some car parts. but i found this out after i made the purchase. ALL fibreglass will work there is no ONE best. because we are using it to waterproof the wood, and give a little stregnth. that is all. what works on the big boat will work here. but there come a time when you need to take a step back and see how far we have come to relaize. WE have over-enginerened. our rc boats. i ran my us 1 meter in lake huron. one of canadas great lakes. the boat works great. in waves 1 meter high and some wind in excess of 60 kph
the boat worked fine. in real life than meens waves over 30 feet and winds over 120kph. do we normaly sail in those condition. heck no we run for the nearest port. but i thought nothing of putting my little us 1 meter. because i had over-eneginered the boat. i used the mgs. i had anchor each shroud and jib pivot piont. to the block. which was then attached to the hull. if anything let go. it would have taken the deck with it. this is how we run our boats,so my guess is use what you feel comfortable with. i used polyester for a long time and then made the switch to epoxy.
good luck and i hope you get it correct
cougar
long live the cup and cris dickson

29

<font color=“green”>HEY GUYS!!!

Cool down!!</font id=“green”>

the topic IS: what type glass/resin do we use?

so a kind of answer could be:

I use A epoxy because “fact”
or I prefer B because epoxy A has “fact”

<font color=“red”>I dont want to see any stories about epoxy A is “crap”!!! I hope I am clear!!</font id=“red”>

Wis

_/ if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it! _

http://wismerhell.esmartdesign.com/index.htm

30

Seeing how these are all “professional” grade products, I happen to agree with Wis. If they all perform in a manner far superior than anything we can find at Home Depot, Lowes, or other retail outlet, then what good is it “bickering” over which is better? I value everybody’s input, due to having the same curiousity about the different brands.

Travis

Don’t forget to have fun!!!

31

sorry probably went too far in my last post about west Vs laminating epoxy.
but for those who do love the west system brand i have been told that West produces a resin specifically formulated for lamination.

regarding vynlester resin i have just started “playing with it” (only in rc no full scale jobs yet)and love it. i have spoken to another boat builder in my area and he told me that vynl is stiffer than epoxy but more brittle. (have no idea how accurate that is though i do hold his opinion highly)
having just started using it it does feel stiffer than epoxy after a week air dry cure but that aside the best thing about it is that you can lay up woven to woven (unlike polyester that recomends a chopped strand matt between wovens) And the BEST thing about it is that you can get it to go off in the same time as polyester! (god i hate waiting 24hrs for a part in a rc yacht) Oh and of course it is about AUS$40 for 4kg(ltrs) only less than half the price of an epoxy laminating resin.

Good point about us making theese rc’s stronger than needed maybe we don’t really need to argue any point about epoxys. Vynlester (or even polyester) resin would probably be more than durable enough for our application. (btw vynl doesn’t “melt” in the car like poly does)

32

Hi all.
I have made a few models and find that i have progressively reduced the laminate as they have been over-engineered. For my latest boat, a mini40, i have used for hulls and decks, one layer of 180g carbon and one layer of 80g fibreglass (E). i use Araldite LC 3600 epoxy http://www.adepoxy.com.au/laminate/lc3600table.html . It is a highly viscous resin that has good “wetability” which simply means it wets out the fibres well. i use a wet lay up from a female mould and so far my estimate for the boat is about 2.5kg rigged. the beauty of this resin is its strength. initially it is not particularly strong, but after postcuring at 50degrees for about 15 hours, it almost doubles its tensile strength. i’m sure you can get a similar product in most places around the world. i make masts, booms, beams and all out of it and as yet have not had a failure. the biggest problem with the boat is getting it stiffer. By using such a thin laminate, it is harder to get the Ixx high enough. A friend of mine is trialling cores such as Nomex, in a 10 rater and is finding it to be a vast improvement. The cost is probably about 1.5 times a “retail” product like West but it sure creates some tough structures.
My 2 cents
Richard

http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~billett