43-900

Don,

To quote you:

‘I always think that the real boats that I see on the water here, have too much twist in the jib. Maybe that’s the nature of the beast?’

In part you are spot on - twist in a genoa is relatively easy to control when beating and close reaching and to a lesser degree reaching by adjusting the position of the turning block on the track. It’s unfortunate that most production cruising boats have tracks that are far too short - proper length tracks were traditionally for the racing boys. As soon as the wind comes abaft the beam excessive twist can become a problem in genoas often overcome by the use of a whisker pole (like a small spinnaker pole) fitted with a downhaul. The serious racing boys wouldn’t bother with that, instead they fly asymetric spinnakers or code 0 sails specifically cut for wind abaft the beam - some are even cut to be carried forward of beam.

In terms of the ‘up force’ on the ring the only solution I can think of would be an extra long length of track along side deck that the ring could be pulled forward along by a line that would either need it’s own servo or perhaps linked into the genoa guidance circuit. Food for thought perhaps?

Regards,

Row

Thanks Row
So it looks like I was trying to do something that can’t(sort of) be done. It wouldn’t be the first time.
Don

Probably should be used a specifically shape for the genoa and using a different angle for the sailing route. Is true anyhow that the genoa is difficult to control. I remember that on my real Dragon was often necessary, with low wind conditions, to use a pole when reaching or just send up the spi.
I’m curious to see what will come out, as already told, with my design is easy to return to the boomed jib just by shortening the genoa sheet and let the genoa servo alone, nevetheless what seen on the Sprinta is encouraging !

To avoid misinterpretations about what I called “ring” , in practice is the same triple link as depicted in this picture. Can be observed that on Sprinta on the starboard that 3 sheets are passing trough the track where another ring is slinding to control the twist, probably too short !.

see also pics at post 79.

ClaudioD

I “think” I’ve got it … (Claudio hope you don’t mind that I adapted your graphic)

The “braking line” as we have been wrongly calling it, must be fixed on the Genoa curcuit, so in fact they are two curcuits share the same winch drum groove (black & green lines) and work with “push-pull” when sheeting in & out.

The main sheeting runs off the other winch drum groove (red line)

I believe these two drums can rotate at different speeds off the same winch servo via controller that “brakes the main sheeting drum” when going about (tacking) and not the Genoa sheeting which needs to run independantly.

Have heard so many times that the Genoa going about does not affect the main position, this can be the only reason why.

What do you think ?

Alan

Hi Alan,

I’ve checked, double checked and checked again, and as far as I can make out whenever the boat tacks the mainsheet goes loose until the winch has whipped the ring to the opposite side. Also, whenever the boat gybes to set the genoa on the opposite side to the main (with main staying on same side, so staying on same tack) the main is sheeted hard in before releasing. The only occasion that didn’t happen was in, I think, the 2nd video you posted (google one) when right at the end one of the models is ghosting along on virtually no wind and tacks. Then the main sheet didn’t appear to slacken off completely - but I think that had more to do with the lack of wind and some very careful rudder control.

Hope that lot makes sense - I guess the truth will out after you meet the designer.

Cheers,

Row

Hi Alan,

If I have understood , according to your explanation, there should be 4 sheets lines ‘in-out’ from the drum.

in this picture I see only one in and out !

Probably I need to think more about ! hum !

Ciao
ClaudioD

Yes, Claudio I was meaning 4 sheeting lines going into the winch.

1 for Genoa guide line (in/out = 2)
1 for Genoa line tension (coming from bow)
1 for the main

However, this pic discounts my theory of seperate drums speeds for Genoa & Main sheeting using seperate drum grooves as the Genoa sheeting here are on different drum grooves :confused: man-o-man this has me stumped.

As Row says, I’ll wait until meeting with designer tomorrow.

Cheers Alan,

Hope we get the mystery sorted out !
ClaudioD

PS: still raining and no cuts of shadows outside !!!

This is where the “braking comes in, I think. I remeber that the German “explanation” video has a label at the top saying"main sheet braking”. My theory is that when tacking, as Row says, the main sheet goes slack and the braking stops the main from going out. I’m thinking that it must be a momentary thing because on some of the video tacks the main sheets out and on some it doesn’t. I’m attributing this to the skill of the skipper. I think you have a set length of time to do the tack or the main will sheet out.
Place your bets gentlemen, we’ll find out shortly.
Are you going to buy one Alan?
Don

Boats are only made to order, so I can’t bring one home with me, but he has a few boats to show me when I’m there, unless there is an unforseeable problem YES … I will buy one, honestly I can’t say NO ! and there is quite a fleet that I can sail with within few hours from home & I like to have more local regatta’s, 12 hour drive each way to Italy & back can only be done 1-2 times times a year. :rolleyes:

Also like to buy seperately additional Genoa system, if available, to fit into one of two IACC 120 hulls I’m currently building, has been a dream for a long time to use genoa on 120, however class rules limit boats to two servo’s & this kills that issue.

Camera loaded and ready, will report back Friday

Cheers Alan

Hi Alan,

probably you did not read carefully the AC120 Rules, because the additional servo is allowed if used only for the Genoa see below .

from AC120 Rules :

"RADIO CONTROL EQUIPMENT USE

(1) The servo rudder control unit shall be limited to the rudder only.

(2) The Winch servo shall be used exclusively for the control of the Main and Jib sheets.

COLOR=Red For those who are intending to use a genoa, it is allowed to employs a dedicated[/COLOR] [COLOR=Red]
additional servo to control the genoa sheet only.

(4) No radio trasmission from the boat shall be made."

cheers
ClaudioD
[/COLOR]

the 43-900 construction restart finally !
Here the first external cutting of shadows, tomorrow will do the innner cutting.
ClaudioD

Hi everybody,

I own a Sprinta RC from Ramoser and can get some explanations.

What Claudio calls a brake line is actually the main sheet line which is fixed on the “ring”, goes to the pulley at the bow, returns, travels below the mast step (it does not go under the deck) and connects to the boom via the main traveller, which is fixed. The pulley at the bow is a very good one and does not act as a brake.

When tacking, the main sail goes loose while the lines move if the skipper does nothing else, to avoid this you must control the leech of the main sail synchroneously during the move. This is very hard to do. As you can see in the Ramoser’s demonstration video, sometimes it works, but, frequently, you can see that the main sail opens widely while tacking windward.

Thanks for the explanation jpparisy,
therefore I assume that the blue line depicted in this picture is misleading .
Cheers
ClaudioD

Thank you!! Does the transmitter stick movement go from close hauled(left) to running(center) to close hauled(right)?
Don

Man-o-man what a exciting day, arrived at Ramoser Technik little earlier than appointed time & as Christian was not yet there, so Hannas looked after me & took went one of their workshops where he introduced me to the Sprinta RC, … they just take your breath away 120 cm LOA with 40 cm beam and they are perfectly constructed and in every detail they look like a real boat.

Comparison was very easy as Christian joined us and showed his original sized Sprinter (the orginal inspiration) with his RC version that’s Christian Ramoser in the first pic with both of his pride and joys. Then we spend next 2 hrs going into great detail.

Firstly, the video we have been looking at was mis-leading as some aspects were only ideas the owner was trying to explain was needed improve the main sheeting which I will come to in little bit.

Finally have the answer about the sheeting system, there are only two lines going in/out of the one winch (green lines), so how’s the main sheeted ? it is the Red line that goes from the ring on Genoa circuit that travels to the block at the bow and then through hole in front of the mast, under the mast foot and the comes out through hole behind the mast foot and along the boom down into the cockpit traveller (which does not move) and ends at the servo horn on starboard side.

Therefore, main sheeting runs off the Genoa sheeting circuit :slight_smile:

The Sprinta uses an RMG for only one reason, it’s the only winch on the market that provides the 9 rotations @ 10 kg.cm of the huge drum to fully sheet in from port to bow tack and it does it 1.8 seconds :cool: Christian says he always on the look-out for less expensive winch, but yet to find anything else that’s up to the job. btw Claudio they sell the Genoa winch system seperately.

The Starboard servo is used only for main sheet trimming independent of the Genoa, where you can have few cms trimming adjustment under sail. It does only have small influence on main twist.

This is a one design class boat, where every boat is exactly the same for racing the only real personal adjustment is in how you wish to program set-up transmitter for Genoa and main sheet trimming controls.

As Main & Genoa share same circuit the sheeting is as normal left stick (up & down) when “centred” is sheeted full out for running, stick down is closed hauled port & stick fully up closed hauled starboard.

When going about as jpparisy says, the main does go loose and this is where skill in timing comes into play by the skipper where need to trim main to avoid losing main boom position, this can be done by either programming up/down sheeting stick to have side-to-side main trimming control or program the transmitter trimming adjuster to perform this function.

Sailing the boats takes some getting used too which is just matter of practice by to become a master takes lot of practice to learn the skill.

Christian & Hannas are working on a way of braking the main sheeting when going about, but nothing is at final production level yet, as said earlier every boat is exactly the same for racing and Christian says that until they can find solution that can be retro-fitted to all boats already built (some 70 so far) it won’t be available for racing, like this guys thinking, everyone has same gear available, no matter how old boat is, my type of fixed class design ruling.

After crawling over every millimetre of the boat it was time for test sail, didn’t see any lake coming in but … low & behold Christian dug out his backyard and turned it in a sailing pond, this guys a real smart cookie, no mowing lawns on the weekend, just pull up chair on balcony open a beer and race your buddies around the backyard until the sun sets…cool.

Unfortunately there was really no wind, which brought me to the subject of butter-flying a Genoa, light wind takes some skill to get the genoa to open (no counter balance like on Jib) however, when wind does come up there is very small batten (carbon) running entire length Genoa sail foot which helps open.

Hannas, will be hopefully joining our site and encouraged him to open Specific Sprinta threat, to answer & share this great boat with us. Christian & Hannas thanks for a great afternoon together and in my humble opinion you have the greatest value for money RC sailing boat I ever come across but most impressive of all is that it takes some realistic sailing skill handling these babies that got me instantly hooked, thank you.

Cheers Alan :zbeer:

Hi Alan,

I’m sure all of us are extremely jealous of your day - just a bit of a pity re lack of wind. I’ve been wet sanding…

Onto the important stuff. Did you hand over any of your hard earnt cash???

Glad the trip was worthwhile & enjoyable.

Regards,

Row

Thanks for the prompt posting Alan. I’m going out of computer range for the weekend and was afraid I would have to wait til Monday to get your story. I was over-complicating things as usual. It’s nice to see that the system is really quite simple but having the tack quality depending on the skill of the skipper scares me a bit. When they were handing out hand/eye coordination I must have been having lunch.
Don

Thank you very much Alan.

You got the courage and deciding so fast to make 700km and more than 6 hours drive in one day just to see the Sprinta RC.

From your generous description I understand that the famous blue line under deck do not exist.
My drawing was the correct interpretation, and the servo finally is the RMG.

Fine, but the computerised servo is still not clear unless is referred to the transmitter that can be programmed.
I was reading about the existance of four micro optical switches used to stop rotation, have you manage to clarify this details ?
So they use in total 3 servos.
You need time to learn how to use it !

One important issue is that their Sprinta servo system can be sold separately , but is it still applicable to other models ? If this is the case they could open to a large market !!

Is not yet clear to me if the system can be adapted directly to a boomed jib as mine, in case one would like to pass from the genoa to the jib.

I’m comforted to find that my system, derived from other more complicated circuit and modified for my purpose, it is very close to the one used for the Sprinta RC based on the traveler “port-staboard principle”

My system employ 3 servos but two are, not expensive, winches.

One is the classic circuit with the boomed jib used on all RC boats that replace the Main line (red) and Main trimmer (light blue) of the Sprinta RC, the other added circuit act as a traveler with the possibility to be trimmed manually in 3 ways as explained in one of my previous messages.
My system do not require expensive programmable transmitter, the typical ATV control appears to be adequate.
For “small” boats like the 43-900, I will probably stick to my choice (pending experimental real verification in the water of course) also because is certainly less expensive and still sufficiently strong to handle the sail surface of 6000cm².

I conclude again with a big thank to you Alan !
The time will clear my mind if after all, the choice will be the classical Jib or the genoa or both according to the wind conditions !

Cheers
ClaudioD

Hi Guys,

Claudio thanks for the kind words, but really the pleasure was all mine as you know I’m always interested in keep-it-simple-sailor (KISS) ideas and this is the icing on the cake in that department and I know it will give me tons of ideas for my future 120 projects. I introduced both Christian & Hannas to your brilliant design & construction skills and Hannas in particular will enjoy exchanging ideas with you, he quite open thinking guy and now very interested in your designs.

To answer your questions, yes your right all computerised reference is in regard to transmitter programming, I don’t believe there is are optical switches (forgot to ask), but Hannas when he joins will clarify this question.

Three servo’s including the winch are in the boat however, I think it is possible to possibly eliminate the main trimming servo (starboard) and fine tune the circuit to avoid main loosing when going about, I’m sure you can figure that out.

I asked Hannas if he could measure the dimensions and weight of the genoa winch system and hopefully he will post this info.
Don will be happy with this, the boat is designed to be converted to using conventional Jib system, everything is there, just no-one has done it !! I think …Hannas ?

The real hammer is that you buy the complete boat including bonded hull & deck, keel, rudder and supports, mast and main boom with all complete rigging, sails made from Dacron, deck decoration, all pulleys boat stand and comprehensive assembly manual and for 495 Euro !!! Naturally, their price list includes all available options including ready to sail with customised graphis etc. so you can choose your own standard.

Any capable modeller can add their own servos for Jib sailing with own radio gear and you truly have a fantastic sailing boat …nothing else available in the world comes near to this bang for your buck.!! and it is all German quality…perfect in every detail :slight_smile:

Row, yes I did part with my hard earned cash, I even considered buying a couple for my sons, but started with just the one to begin and if they are serious they can decide, but I’m sure they will be sailing more than me, one of my sons has a Fairwind and after customising it you cannot get it out of his hands … I think that might change :stuck_out_tongue: can you see why ?

Cheers Alan

P.S Claudio thanks for 120 rules correction I was clearly wrong, but I will be testing Genoa system in a 120, out of my new Sprinta to start with …:rolleyes: